S2 into S3 subject choices - reduced from 12 to 9!

[chestnutmares]

Our secondary school held an online event this eve to discuss making subject choices for the S2 pupils going into S3. This year, thanks to COVID, they are apparently reducing their options from 12 choices to 9! 2 of those must be English & Maths. My DD is gutted - she was really looking forward to S3 and had already planned all her subjects. I can't believe they're reducing it by 25%. They say you can pick some others up again in S4 but, no matter how they dress it up, it really feels like these kids are missing out on a chunk of their education and opportunities. What will this mean for Highers, and for their Uni chances - won't they be disadvantaged? Would love to hear from other parents in the same boat, or teachers too. Thanks.

What exactly is happening? It would be really normal to drop to around 9 subjects in S3. Is it that certain things (like say, history but no geography) are not being offered at all?
I'm not sure why covid would affect option choices.

Is 12 normal? I only done 8 standard grades including maths and English.

So usually her year would get 12 choices including English & Maths. Then they might drop a few in S4 and focus on around 8 for their Highers. And they would get to choose 2 Sciences, 2 Humanities, 2 Arts subjects, etc. Now they can only choose 1 each for S3, but can pick up another in S4 (if they drop something else). So instead of being able to do Physics & Biology, History & Modern Studies, Drama & Art etc for S3, she'll have to choose 1 of each, so only History, Physics & Drama for example.

Apparently it's so they can do them 'in more depth' than normal, which seems to mean 'to make up for all the missed learning this year' or something.

Right I see this is a change to what your school did before but it is standard practice in schools around Scotland. There are issues about whether it is what was supposed to happen under CFE in the BGE (!) but it is common.
You will get a column for Eng, maths, one for sciences, one for arts, one for social subjects etc. A couple of core things like PE/PSE. And an "extra" column at the end which you do an extra science, an extra language, an extra social subject in - so you could do two sciences, but not two sciences AND two languages.
This means they start into the national courses in S3 really. So yes it does give more time to do in depth. They might be saying covid has led to this but it is in keeping with what happens in every school I know of, so please don't panic that your dc is being disadvantaged in some way compared to other schools!

If you weren't expecting this I can see it's a shock. But yeah they do drop a lot of subjects after S2 which I do think is a bit of a shame.

Pupils wouldn't normally sit 8 highers also. 5 is normal ( in one year).

What will this mean for Highers, and for their Uni chances -

Nothing. They don't sit 9 subjects at higher, let alone 12.

I would be pleased with this, they have missed a lot and reducing subjects now is a good way to ensure they get the depth they need for Nat5 then onto higher.

Mine only sat 6 Nat5 in S4. DD went on to take another 2 and 2 highest in S5 then 3 highest in S6. DS did 5 highest in S5 and didn't bother with more Nat5.

It’s normally 6/7 or really a max of 8 subjects for Nat 5s which are taken in S4. Those numbers are dropped to 5 highers in S5. The larger number of subjects applies in S3 if the school continues Broad General Education in S3. Many schools don’t , preferring to spend longer on the actual curriculum for Nat5 and/or depth, so narrowing down to 9 then dropping a further 2 going into S4 - looks like your school have chosen to do this like many other schools. Your DC will not be disadvantaged re uni. My option it’s a better approach rather than cramming everything for Nat 5 into one year.

Your school sounds like they did it weird and certainly not the norm. My son is in s3 and he picked 7 subjects on top of maths and English and for s4 he will be dropping 2 so doing 7 nat 5s. This seems pretty standard from people and schools I know. Never heard of anyone doing 12 nat 5s and 8 highers, that sounds ridiculous.

Thanks all for the replies, that sounds reassuring and will help me to reassure my disappointed DD too. Sometimes Mumsnet is very helpful!

Also the numbers of subjects they do doesn’t really seem to have changed much since I was at school 30 odd years ago. I did 8 o/s grades in s4 and 5 highers in s5.

I realised I got a bit confused in my typing last night - I meant 8 Nat 5s rather than Highers, of course!

@celtiethree I think you're right, our school usually continues BGE in S3 so a wider choice of subject options which they they would then narrow down in S4. It's a mix of short and long modules, so gives them more chances to try different subjects before they select Nat 5 subjects. But sounds like this year they will do it differently, due to COVID pressures, but really good to know that other schools already do it that way. Cheers!

DS was a bit disappointed as he is struggling to see if he will manage to take three sciences in S3, due to the timetable. I said probably not, but no harm in trying. He wants to ditch PE but I said it is still compulsory. That hasn't changed much since I left school then😂

DD picked her S3 options about 3 weeks ago and it was 8 options so did feel very much the same as standard grades. Then in S3, they go down to 7, then in S4 its 6. That's just our school though.

I think the range of subjects they can choose from is more broad in senior years so I reckon choice will be harder.

DD is doing all N5s (which is credit basically).

I think N4 is general but no exams in N4.

We wanted her to do two sciences but she didn't want to. I do think the options form could be laid out better so that taking more than one science isn't optional for example. It means the kids are often having to pick a subject they don't really want to take just because there's nothing else in that column that interests them. Two sciences could be more beneficial than another subject.

Glad there's others going through the same concerns just now. It's not a great time for our DC choosing subjects that could impact the rest of their lives.

My dc doesn't want to do any science so certainly wouldn't want to have two compulsory! He would get very poor grades too. He wants to do two social subjects and two languages but can't fit that in - it is never going to be possible to suit anyone, but I think it's better to have as little compulsory as possible to allow for individual talents.

My DD’s state secondary school has them take a total of 8 subjects at Nat 5 and they choose those 8 subjects now - at the end of S2. They 8 include compulsory English and Maths, plus 4 subjects taken from each of the ‘Columns’ (Arts, Science, Social, Technical) and 2 ‘electives’ that they can choose from any of the 4 columns.

Unfortunately my DD does not want to do any of the ‘Tech’ subjects (Engineering Science, Design & Manufacture, IT & Admin, Computing, Business, Games Dev) but I think she’ll have to. She wants to do all three sciences (Plus Art, History and French) but they really would rather her only do 2 sciences.

I sense we’ll have to have some discussions with the school to see if they’ll allow her the three. They also have compulsory PE, RME and PSE in S3 and S4 but they aren’t exam subjects but obviously can be taken at Higher (not sure on this though)

We haven’t had the final columns for this year and obviously it’s all going to be a bit harder to sort via email and Zoom/Teams calls rather than face to face. I’m gobsmacked she’s choosing to do all three sciences though - it’s totally coming from her. - I have no ambition for her to become a Doctor or anything. I know the school will think this is coming from me though.

I know doing 8 Nat 5s isn’t that common round here. Even the ‘high flying’ state school in this LA only does 7. In some ways I wish they capped it at 7 Nat 5s as it’s a lot to cram in!

PE, RME and PSE - the first two can be taken for Higher yes (though depends on the school if they offer them, not PSE though but it's important for careers info, sex Ed, drugs stuff, prep for uni applications etc.

oooo I wish games development had been an option for DD. She does like minecraft and things like that.

@OptionsShmoptions could your DC not do a crash higher in one science in S6 or something?

Jabbathebutt I think this is what she’ll be encouraged to do - take the third science as a crash Higher. But isn’t that a disadvantage for her in a Higher class where many of her peers would have been studying the subject for a whole 2 years from S3? Playing catch up on a Higher course when she could have been doing it for 2 years?

What’s the thinking behind having a child do HFT or Business & Computing, if they were only choosing it because they had to and not because they were at all interested in the subject? It does seem incredibly unfair and counterproductive. I imagine it makes for a far more stressful Higher year getting to grips with a totally new subject and having to condense 3 years of learning into 1.

And it’s not as if she’s ‘restricting’ her range of choices - she wants to do Art and History. It’s not like a child wanting to do Art, Drama, Music, Design & Manufacture and Games Dev.

I know this is a common and annual complaint. I looked backed to my threads on this that I posted 3 years ago (under a different username) when her brother was going through the same. He was nearly prevented from doing a 2nd science - they wanted him to pick a tech subject instead leaving him with only 1 science which I thought was nuts - we won that battle. Unfortunately he’s not had to take any Nat 5s or Highers because of Covid. If only I’d had a crystal ball back then?!

I think it will come down to timetabling in the end. You can’t really argue when they make it logistically impossible to take all 3 sciences. That’s down to the school. I think schools like Bearsden Academy make it possible because they want to produce lots of Vet/Med students and there’s a lot of parents from that demographic sending their kids there. My children’s school obviously doesn’t think this is the ambition of many of its pupils - I find this quite surprising,

We are awaiting feedback about the three sciences issue too.

Our school now has them pick the subjects in S2 that they will do through until Nat5. They take only 7 subjects! Dd had to pick 9 in S2 then drop to 7 at the end of S3 so it changed in the 3 years between dd and ds. Ds is S3 and is doing the 7 subjects picked at the end of S2.

It’s all a bit of a mess isn’t it? In my research I came across this Mumsnet thread from 2012 when CfE was in development and soon to be implemented. There’s a lot of debate and confusion about exactly how it will work and whether it will result in a better system. Some of it could have been written yesterday! I would LOVE to know the thoughts of some of the posters on that thread. How did it go for their kids? What were their experiences like?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/1433434-Education-Scotland-Curriculum-for-Excellence?pg=2