Rejecting sex, not rejecting him?

[meltinginmychair]

DH and I had an argument about sex this morning and it veered into talking about our feelings surrounding sex in general.

(disclaimer: we have a healthy sex life etc, we just spoke about past baggage and how it influences your view on something)

He spoke about sex being incredibly prominent in media etc and usually always pushed towards men, and how that's affected him growing up believing that perhaps there's something "wrong" with him if a woman doesn't want to have sex/perform various sex acts etc. I.e his "go to" is that there must be something wrong with him, VS believing that maybe the woman just simply doesn't fancy sex. He internalises it as something he's lacking, rather than someone just not fancying it.

I spoke about my own experience of only really seeing sex be portrayed as a duty/expectation for women to perform and having exes who took advantage of that fact, which has lead me to not enjoy "performing" in any way that doesn't benefit us both. I.e sex between us both, VS something like a handjob where it's very much one person giving and one person receiving.

He's also never been able to really understand not wanting to have sex (he respects when I don't want to and doesn't moan about it, just doesn't understand) and the best way I've ever found to describe is it as if you have a lovely chocolate cake in front of you, and you love chocolate cake but you're full and don't want to eat it. Just because you're not hungry doesn't mean you don't like chocolate cake. Whereas in his mind he's more like "if I love chocolate cake why wouldn't I want to have it". Again, he doesn't pressure me to do anything I don't want to do, he just literally doesn't seem to understand it.

I just found it an interesting conversation and wondered if others have partners whose go-to is that there must be something wrong with them if you don't fancy having sex and how you deal with it? He's a good man and I don't like the thought of him thinking he's lacking something, but at the same time we seem to be on totally different wavelengths so I'm finding it tricky to actually get through to him, and him vice/versa.

From my point of view, when I don't want sex it's because I don't want sex, it's nothing to do with him.

Not sure what I'm asking for, perhaps just a little advice/guidance. We're good at communicating but have always found this subject tricky.

I've tried explaining it biologically/evolutionary also. Men are more likely to want sex pretty much all the time because they can reproduce with every sexual encounter. For women, theres a certain time of thr month where they can reproduce so I really feel like evolution/biology can play a part in it. Hormones fluctuate around ovulation etc!! I also have a DH who doesn't understand how I wouldn't always be in the mood for sex, because he would never turn it down if I made a move!!

Yep I tried that this morning too! I think at some point he just started being stubborn because he would admit that it's all true and he believed it, but that he still didn't understand it.

To me, sex is great and I enjoy it but I have to be in the right mindset (we don't have kids and both have easy jobs so it's not even about stress etc), I can't just press a button and be up for it. Whereas he obviously can, so doesn't seem to think that it adds up when I say I enjoy it but I'm not up for it right now. He seems genuinely baffled by it, or takes offence and thinks it means he must've done something wrong/be lacking something. The "I just don't fancy it" doesn't compute in his brain!

I don't think this is a male vs female thing

I'm female and I would feel there was something wrong with me if my dh didn't want to have sex with me. It would make me feel unattractive and unappealing.

I'm mid 50s and I've never come across the concept of sex as a duty for women to perform. That idea is ludicrous and sounds like something from Victorian times. Where on earth did you see that being portrayed OP? Are you very religious ?

Sex is something very much to be enjoyed.

We've been together 10+ years and have sex 2-3 times a week, our sex life isn't lacking at all. If we rarely had sex I'd get it. I'm just trying to understand why his brain jumps to "there's something wrong with me" when it's only been a few days since the last time we had sex. He doesn't vocalise this most of the time, it's just what his mind jumps to and I find it sad/difficult to understand.

No, not religious at all. Just had a couple of relationships early on where if I didn't fancy having sex the answer would be "give me a hand job then" or "oh come on just give me a quickie". Bit by bit, my brain then saw sex as a service rather than something fun to do between partners. It's totally different with my DH but sometimes when he asks for a hand job my brain will go back to those other relationships, sort of like it's been a bit triggered and dragged me back to the past.

Again, our sex life isn't the issue. We have plenty of sex and we're both happy, we just started digging through past baggage and talking about how it influenced us.

Is he sensitive to perceived rejection in general? Is he hearing this as you not fancying him, rather than you not fancying sex?

I know some people for who external validation of their attractiveness is a key part of them feeling sexual and desired. Being 'wanted' is both validation and a turn on in and of itself.

Emily Nagoski has some interesting thoughts on spontaneous and responsive desire as well as sexual accelerators and brakes that might also be worth considering. If he experiences a lot of spontaneous desire it may be helpful for him to understand that for some people desire is responsive and not instantly or constantly available!

Yes, he is. He's definitely hearing "I don't fancy you" rather than "I'm not in the mood to have sex" and I've no idea how to get him to see that it's not what I mean.

He's for sure the spontaneous desire type and I'm more responsive, sure, but for me it depends entirely on how I'm feeling. Overall he's a really good partner and is consistent with it, we share chores etc 50/50 and is kind, so it's not even a case of "he was a dick to me earlier so I don't want to" or "he didn't empty the dishwasher so I'm annoyed and don't want to". My reasons are much more like

• I'm tired so I can't be arsed
• I'm bloated and uncomfortable so don't feel sexy
• I'm at a really good chapter in my book and would rather read
• I'm close to getting my period and feel disgusting so don't want to be touched
• I woke up 3 minutes ago and can't even open my eyes yet let alone have sex, try me again later

Like I've said, we're already having sex a couple of times a week, so to me it never feels like a big deal to put reading my chapter over having sex because we'll be having it regardless in a day or so, but to him it's feeling like a rejection because I don't find him sexy enough or handsome enough etc.

I'll look into Emily Nagoski, thanks for that recommendation!

Yes, I agree. I know my husband loves me, but if I want sex and he doesn’t, there is a bit of me that thinks ‘why, is he not attracted to me?’. I know it’s ridiculous, but sometimes you can’t help the way you feel.

I haven’t grown up thinking sex was a duty and my husband hasn’t grown up thinking he was entitled to it, so I think that maybe be just a thing that’s particular to you as a couple.

It can also apply to other things, if you ask a mate to the pub for a drink and they say they’re tired and don’t fancy it, then I think it’s ok to be a bit disappointed.

I understand the disappointment, just not the genuinely thinking there must be something wrong with you. I've had sex with him all the other times in our lives, I've complimented him incessantly, we're a touchy couple anyway so are always hugging and kissing, we do things for each other, we cook for each other, we have date nights, etc. So it hurts when his go to is "why is she not attracted to me". What's your thought process when you have that thought? Does your husband need to reassure you, or do you sort of talk yourself out of that frame of mind?

Your words are quite strong, I haven't grown up thinking it's solely a duty and he hasn't grown up thinking he's entitled to it. We've just both had experiences that have shaped how we view sex in some ways despite our common sense. Do you think you're entitled to sex just because you feel your husband doesn't fancy you when he says no? No.

I reckon it's because in most PIV encounters, men are pretty much guaranteed an orgasm whereas women have a much lower chance. Not because we're not capable but because we don't always get the right kind of sex to get us there.

Ask your DH how keen he'd be if four times out of ten, you'd have an orgasm and then everything stopped before he had too, and the cultural expectation was that this was completely normal and reasonable (and if he didn't orgasm then he was probably a bit frigid). He might understand a bit better then.

Oh that's interesting, that's a good question to ask him, thank you. I kind of sort sex into different categories - "full on sex" which always ends in me orgasming, and "quickie" sex that isn't even necessarily a quickie but I just class it as such as I don't mind if I orgasm or not, it's just PIV sex and that's fine with me. I choose (and get) the type of sex I desire each time, so I'm always satisfied even if I haven't orgasmed.

Having said that, I do think you have a point in that because orgasming isn't a guarantee or a goal of mine in every instance, it makes me view it differently to him. He always gets a "release" whether or not he's also looking for simple closeness rather than just the orgasm, so that fundamentally changes how it's viewed and may make me less interested sometimes if all I'm up for is PIV with no intention of orgasm.

I think the crux of this thread is mainly to understand him a bit more, so that really helps, thank you!

It may be that he's just never had "enough" sex before.

Until last year neither had I. Yes, there had been periods of my life where I didn't want sex, but it was always because there was something wrong. I was ill, or I was stressed from work, or someone had died and I was grieving. There was always a reason why I didn't want it. A big serious reason, not a "I want to finish my chapter" reason.

DP has a lower sex drive than me. To be honest, so has every other partner I've ever had. She's always been happy enough with once or twice a week. And I've accepted that, because well, what else can I do. Me nagging isn't going to make me any more attractive, and I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want sex with me anyway.

So I accepted it, but I never really understood it. I never felt like it was anything wrong with me. I suffer from an overabundance of confidence in that area. I'm gorgeous, if DP doesn't want sex with me, then that's her problem. But I never really understood it. Short of a big life shattering issue, why wouldn't she want sex. Sex is awesome, it's the best thing on the planet, there is nothing I would rather be doing than having sex with DP, at any point in time. No matter how good my book is, no matter how tired I am, no matter what, sex wins.

And then last year hit, and DP properly hit peri-menopause, and her hormones went wild. And with it, her sex drive hit the roof. Every day, sometimes twice a day. It was everything I'd ever dreamed of, right?

Wrong.

Turns out, that at the age of 42, about 4 or maybe 5 times a week is my limit. Maybe it would have been higher in my 20s, who knows, I never found anyone who wanted to have it that much back then. Turns out there is such a thing as "enough" sex. Turns out that sometimes I would prefer to watch TV, or get an early night. Turns out you can get that "eaten too much chocolate cake" feeling about sex. I'd just never had enough to hit the threshold before.

So no OP, your husband may never be able to understand you not wanting sex. It's an alien experience for him. But he does need to learn to accept it, and that it's not a reflection on him.

I’ve had very different sex drives in different relationships and different parts of my life, and I do feel I understand at least my sexuality better now.

Did he respond to your chocolate cake analogy? I think it’s a good one.

I don’t think it’s unusual to feel a bit rejected if someone doesn’t want sex with you. It’s one of the reasons sexless relationships are so awful. Not that you have one of those!

I don’t think it’s easy for men to understand how little women are encouraged to understand or pursue their own sexual response (though tbf I’m in my 50s so perhaps that’s changed). If you see a sex scene in a movie or TV, the number of times that it is clear what has aroused the woman, or where the woman is aroused by something different from what arouses the man, to me is very low. I only realised when I was in my 30s that my fantasies never included myself. I found I wasn’t alone in that on here. No man has ever described to me a sexual fantasy that aroused him but didn’t include him as the central person (I include in that fantasies where he is the submissive - he will still be the central character). Again I was in my 30s before I understood what my body felt like when I was aroused. I’d read about it and I’d even experienced it but I’d never seen or felt with my hands what my genitals looked like or felt like when aroused. I don’t think there’s a man on the planet who doesn’t know what his penis looks like when aroused. I know a lot of women who say they are turned off by feeling that they aren’t looking good to the other person - I think some men do experience that too but nothing like as often or as completely. I think that is partly because our culture is saturated with ‘sex equals how a woman looks, and she should look like X’. Porn, basically, but more than porn, all media.

The idea that because he is aroused, you will be too, is intrinsically a bit silly. You have a great sex life but he STILL doesn’t seem to understand that your sexuality is something entirely separate from him.

Hmm that's interesting - can I ask, are you a man?

It's always been very clear that his sex drive is higher than mine. In the beginning we were having sex every day, sometimes twice a day, and eventually after just under a year it dwindled to 3-4 times a week. Nowadays, after 10 years, it's about 2-3 a week other than when I have my period, or when I've had some sort of fertility exam (we'll be going through IVF shortly). But even in the early days when we were having sex every day, if I was ever too tired or just couldn't be arsed, he'd have the same reaction of thinking "I'm not good enough, I've done something wrong" etc (again, never voicing it in the moment), which makes me think it's perhaps nothing to do with sex at all, perhaps it's an insecurity or a confidence issue and it's just "coming out" with sex.

Like every couple, we've always had shit periods where sex falls off the table but we've always been very tactile with each other, but perhaps I was wrong to assume that the physical affection would "replace" the sex whenever we didn't have it, at least for him.

I do resonate with your "hitting the limit" though. When we were actively trying to conceive and decided "fuck it let's just have sex every other day for a month and see if that works" , he did get sick of it!

Perhaps it's obscuring some other insecurity of him not feeling good enough overall and this is just a convenient outlet, so it's worth me delving deeper, thank you!

He understood the analogy but didn't resonate with it, because to him he would always be up for having more cake even if he was full.

Yes, you're entirely right. Sex is usually portrayed as something focused on the man, or the woman is "absolutely gagging for it" and turned on by the mere sight of the naked man. I can't speak for anyone else but that's just not how it works for me. I totally understand the feeling of not feeling good enough if someone rejects you for sex, I just wasn't aware it ran so deep for him and made him question a lot about himself.

My sexuality is definitely completely separate from him. It depends on 500 other things and at no point does he come into it. I can look at him and think he's the sexiest man alive, but if I'm not in the mood for having sex, the sight of him won't sway me. Whereas for him it's the opposite I think. He sees me in a bikini or getting out of the shower and he's immediately aroused. It's just two different brains working in two different ways, hence trying to understand where he's coming from.

Buy 10 very large, sickly, indulgent, identical chocolate cakes @meltinginmychair and make him eat them all in one sitting. If he manages that, for the next month end PIV before he orgasms. See if he understands then.

Hahahah, that'll be my next tactic if we can't get through to one another 😏

I am a man - sorry, I do usually remember to mention that when it's relevant!

To your point about other forms of intimacy not being a replacement for sex, I do think there's something there. DP and I talked about it when she first hit her insatiable phase. It scared her a bit because for the first time in her life she just really wanted sex. Up till then she'd always wanted me, or her exes, it had always been about the person, not the activity. It's the difference I think between people who happily have one night stands and those who can only have sex in a relationship.

For one group, the point of sex is to enhance the connection with the other person. For the other group, sex and the connection are separate, but both can enhance the other. Holding hands etc can maintain, the connection, but it's not a replacement for sex itself.

You mention that his insecurity around sex may be a more general insecurity. I don't reckon so. As I said I don't have a problem in this area for some reason (I'm a balding fat man who is objectively only averagely skilled in the bedroom, but my brain refuses to accept this), but I do have crippling self confidence issues in other areas of my life, and I can generally trace the reasons for them back to the source. If your husband has an issue with his attractiveness, then there will likely be a direct reason for that.

It may not even be that he feels he's unattractive, but just that he's screwed if you start thinking he is. DP struggled a bit with the power dynamic shift when she started wanting sex all the time. It had always been on her terms, but now suddenly it was in my hands. Whether she got to have sex or not was entirely in my control, and that was scary for her. It wasn't that she thought she was unattractive, but what if I did. Something she felt she needed would be taken away from her, unless she was willing to blow up the relationship and our family.

It may just be that fear of what happens if you stop being willing to provide something he considers essential to the relationship.

Sorry if you took that the wrong way, I was just going by how you had explained things. I was just trying to say my husband and I haven’t grown up thinking about sex the way you have. I would also say I’m more spontaneous. I wouldn’t think, ‘oh I don’t want sex now as I will probably have it in the next 5 days’.

I don’t need reassurance, I know it’s a me issue. It doesn’t really play on my mind after, it can just be a bit disappointing when you fancy something and the other person doesn’t. If you have any body self esteem issues (which I know I definitely do!), then it’s an extra layer to process. It’s not my husband’s fault, I know that, but sometimes you just can’t help the way you feel.

Hmm, I understand your point but I'm not sure it resonates with his/our situation. It seems to be that he's placed value in sex = being wanted and when he doesn't have it (fairly rare, to be completely honest) it makes him doubt himself.

I understand what you're saying about other forms of intimacy not replacing sex, I don't believe in that either. It was more in the sense of me thinking "how can you not believe you're wanted" when I do all of those other things consistently. But regardless, I get what you mean and I think it does play a part.

If I'm being honest, I think it's an insecurity that comes out with rejection, whether it's orientated around sex or not. I see it every now and then in other areas, so that's perhaps something to tackle rather than focusing on it being all about sex.

No, no worries at all. I get what you mean now. As I say I totally get the disappointment, I just didn't realise that it ran so deep for him and obviously would like to make sure that changes. I have the disappointment myself too in other areas, it's only natural, but I tend to take things a lot less personally than he does, so it's something to think about and figure out how to tackle and be more mindful of in the future.