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Original poster

Appeal on grounds of 'perversely unreasonable'

37 replies

Bezzabelle · 20/04/2015 19:45

Wondered if anyone could offer advice- we didn't get offered any of our three choices for DS and instead offered our catchment school. The reason I didn't apply for this in the first place is I work in the criminal justice system and am professionally involved with parents of children who attend this school. This would be a real safeguarding issue for DS. I'm going to appeal on these grounds. We are 2nd on waiting list on 1st and 2nd choices so hopeful of that but can't risk not appealing. It would be a infant class size appeal as up to their 30 pupils. There has not been any admissions criteria that has not been incorrectly followed so would just be won if I can argue that DS would be prejudiced more than the school. What are my chances are winning appeal do you think and should
I also mention social reasons such as my son is shy and he won't know anyone at the allocated school but will do at our 1st and 2nd choice?
These were not unreasonable schools to put as choices and literally missed out on one by a matter of yards......

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PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 20/04/2015 19:55

Actually I think these type of safeguarding issues are very much what that rule is designed for (assuming the schools you want don't have the same issue ). I am sure one of the experts will be along soon

FireCanal · 20/04/2015 19:58

I believe it is exactly the situation that rule was designed for. But did you tell them? It might be hard to the argue that the decision was perverse if they didn't know about it?

Esko · 20/04/2015 20:02

If I was on the panel I would ask how you could guarantee that none of your clients might be parents at another of the schools?

TheWhiteRoad · 20/04/2015 20:02

It does sound like a solid reason for appeal. But does the school you are appealing for have a 'social issues' category? Did you detail these issues on your application form? As Fire says above, it might be more difficult to argue it was a 'perverse' decision if they were unaware of the circumstances.

FunkyPeacock · 20/04/2015 20:03

Just wondering how you can be sure that the same problem won't arise at your 1st or 2nd choice school?

In the circumstances you have described I can understand why you wouldn't want the catchment school but I assume the appeals people would need to be pretty confident that your reasons only apply to this particular school and not the others

Could ask colleagues in similar roles how they have avoided their child being in a similar situation?

morethanpotatoprints · 20/04/2015 20:09

How do you know others who know you won't be at any of the other schools, and what would you do if they were?
if the answer is you would stay at the other school and not move to a different area to your work, then you shouldn't win an appeal.

Original poster

Bezzabelle · 20/04/2015 20:11

I didn't write anything on the application as to be honest, I didn't think we wouldn't get one of our choices (everyone I know got one of their choices!) which was probably silly of me on hindsight. So I didn't say the reasons why I wasn't applying for the catchment school as it wasn't any of our choices so didn't think I needed to.

I can't predict whether or not any of the parents will be at the school of choice in the future but I do know there aren't any at the current time so my manager can manage that by making sure I'm not involved whereas I can't be uninvolved with the ones I'm already involved in at our allocated school if that makes sense?

Thanks for replies so far.

OP posts:

FireCanal · 20/04/2015 20:37

Oh dear, they haven't actually made a perverse decision then. You need one of the experts to come along and advise how an appeal panel might view it.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 20/04/2015 20:49

Do any of the schools have a medical/social need category? If they do, you should probably have put it down, if they don't then I'm not sure it would have made a difference if you had put it on the form as they wouldn't have been able to take it into account.

I'm not totally sure, but my understanding is that the 'unreasonable' criteria is there for those situations that the admissions criteria don't predict, but would necessitate being in or avoiding a particular school. If the criteria don't allow you to apply under a social need category then you might have a case. One of the admissions experts would be able to advise better though.

admission · 20/04/2015 21:09

The first thing is to know whether or not the LA admission criteria has a social /medical admission criteria. If it does then the LA will argue strongly at appeal that this was your mechanism to put down that there was a specific social issue, that meant that your preference school were there for a reason and that your child needed to attend one of them. If you did not, as you say put anything down on the form or bring it to the attention of the LA then you will have weakened your case.
If however there is no social / medical criteria then in actual fact there is no real mechanism to bring your issue to the notice of the LA. Most panel are fully aware of the issues around this sort of situation and will do everything they can to make such problems go away. The problem is that in the strictest sense of the law the situation is not unreasonable because the LA did not know about the situation in the first place, so how could it be unreasonable? It will in effect be up to the panel as to how far they wish to push the envelope of what is unreasonable.
What is clear is that you will need the strongest possible case to argue this. You need a letter from your employer, very clearly laying out why the school allocated is completely unacceptable and will lead to potential issues within the school and you also should get them to say as far as they are aware there are none in the preference school and in the future arrangements made to mitigate against you having to work with parents in the school you would prefer.

Original poster

Bezzabelle · 20/04/2015 21:35

Just checked application form again- it just gave an option to rank the schools and had to tick to say if in catchment or whether selecting school because of distance from home and then additional information why applying for school- I put things like feeds on from nursery and he will know others etc. Guess I could have put something in this box but the criteria says nothing about social/medical reasons? If I had to give reasons for not applying for catchment school, I would have wrote all about job but our first choice is 0.6 miles away and has a double intake this year so stupidly thought id be safe!

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tiggytape · 20/04/2015 22:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Buttercupsandaisies · 20/04/2015 22:24

My Cousin works in similar environment, similar concerns and lost her appeal even though panel were very sympthetic.

She had files of documentation from everyone, employers, and people further up but still lost. The panel argued the demographic area of her choices was so wide and the type of families can be found across this area and confirmed that the risk could not be isolated to only this school - her choices were 10 miles apart too. They said 10 miles was not far enough to be away from such a risk so they figured it wasn't unreasonble.

You may be better seeing if you can get into another school with places (not in catchment) rather than using this reason to appeal for a more popular school. Not trying to be nagative but my cousin thought she had this in the bag, she had so much evidence but she still lost :(

They will surely argue that there's a chance of such families being in a school of only 0.6 miles away and will suspect you maybe just don't want this school. Not saying that's true but it's certainly the impression the panel had with my cousin ...believe me she had a lots of relevant, potentially dangerous situation type evidence.

Nowfeeltheneedtopost · 20/04/2015 22:29

My understanding is that in ICS appeals (which this is, as you say) then the argument for "unreasonable" is effectively that no-one with the information provided should reasonably have made the decision they did. I think,therefore, your issue is that you didn't provide any information at the time of application about this issue that could have been considered in the applications process. It can't be perverse that this wasn't considered if the information wasn't provided. I appreciate that the form may not have suggested a specific section where this could be entered but I am assuming you could have sent a separate email or letter detailing these specific issues. The advice here is often to appeal even if the chances are very slim since you may get a sympathetic appeals panel and so you may wish to do so and provide more information (as others have said, including a letter from your employer which backs up your argument) then. But in my experience, and from all I've read on here, ICS appeals are very hard to win and I can't see that the decision is perverse since they had no other information.

Buttercupsandaisies · 20/04/2015 22:42

When applying for dd, I was happy with any school apart from my catchment (doing badly) and so when listing 3 choices, in the additional info section I actually put 'if I can't get in either of the 3 listed, then any school is ok except catchment school - please give me a further away school in this case'. LEA said this was acceptable to do and they would take it on board.

LEA may have given you the next available school if they knew you'd didn't want this one but your reasons only suggest why you can't go for catchment school, they don't offer any reasons why you need to go to the ones you applied for. That's why I'd ring and ask for alternative schools with places.

prh47bridge · 20/04/2015 23:17

the argument for "unreasonable" is effectively that no-one with the information provided should reasonably have made the decision they did

Whilst that is broadly true most appeal panels will try to find a way of helping in this situation. They may, for example, decide that it was unreasonable that the LA did not provide any obvious mechanism for addressing this kind of concern.

Original poster

Bezzabelle · 21/04/2015 06:28

The social thing is not used in the admissions criteria here so like someone said- they wouldn't have been able to take that into account anyway?

My manager is going to write a supporting letter for me and I will ask if she can outline how she will manage the situation if any children started at the school I prefer. The main argument is that there are a number of parents im professionally involved in that are at the allocated school and I can't change that or be uninvolved as they already know who I am. Whereas if that is to happen in the future, I can try to avoid that case and not have any involvement with them. Does that make sense?

OP posts:

Original poster

Bezzabelle · 21/04/2015 06:38

Also only 2% of children in this area did not get any of their three choices - that's why I thought we would be ok.
I know I couldn't have predicted this but just wanted to outline how low the numbers were.

OP posts:

Original poster

Bezzabelle · 21/04/2015 08:11

Just thought of something else- when I applied for schools, I was on maternity leave and didn't have a caseload then but now have a full one so couldn't have really known at time of applying.....

OP posts:

SomedayMyPrinceWillCome · 21/04/2015 08:18

Is there a chance that any future caseload may include families from your preferred school? What would happen then?
I don't mean to be difficult - genuine question

tiggytape · 21/04/2015 08:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CharlesRyder · 21/04/2015 08:43

If the school you want is only 0.6 from home and the school you are trying to avoid is your catchment school I imagine the schools must be very close together and therefore you must live cheek by jowl with you clients. In a few years your DS will meet them and their children out on the street when he is playing on his bike etc?

I would also imagine your clients' cousins/ friends etc use other local schools. Who you are will be known in the community in general.

I would imagine that the panel would think that if you think it's safe for your family to share a community with your clients it will be safe for your DS to go to school with them?

CactusAnnie · 21/04/2015 10:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mugglingalong · 21/04/2015 10:14

The other problem that they might argue is that some of the families that you are involved with might move to your preferred school. Certainly in our area some of the children who move to the school higher up are ones who have been in trouble in other schools, what if a child was expelled from the catchment school but there was a place available at one of the other nearby schools where your children are? You might be safer trying to find a school further away where this situation is less likely.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 21/04/2015 10:29

Hang on, you were on maternity leave so didn't have a case load, but the reason you didn't list the school was because it could overlap with your caseload...

I am sympathetic, really truly. However, I think that you are going to have to be really careful that your appeal doesn't come off as "I don't want my child to go to school with the rough kids".

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