Appeals - morally acceptable?

[swissrole]

Our local primary school is excellent and in an affluent area. In recent years the catchment intake has been light and the governors and head like to keep the numbers down and not take children from out of catchment or 'outsiders'. However, something has changed at lea level and this year the reception class has been topped up with a number of appeal cases from outside of the area.
Within the school community these families are unpopular and are seen to have pushed there way in where they are not welcome. The very active govenors and fund raising commitees seem to see these people as free loaders but most are in fact very nice families. There seems to be a clique situation developing. Can anyone guide me through the morals of this on b oth sides? you can't punish people for wanting the best for their children and you cannot resist the idea of diversitysurely?

It's very interesting because my take (even though i live in catchment) is that everyone should have the right of choice and if a school has places then they should be made available to anyone who wants them.

Whilst appeal panels occasionally get it wrong, appeals should only succeed where:

• The LA or school has made a mistake
• The LA or school has failed to comply with the rules
• The child's education will be damaged if he/she doesn't go to this school

If parents base their appeal simply on wanting little Johnny to go to Bash Street Primary they should fail.

From what you say, it sounds to me like this school may have been breaking the law by refusing to admit children from out of catchment even though there were places available. They cannot do that. If there is a place available it must be awarded to any child who applies regardless of where they live.

To me, the morals of this are straightforward. If the school has been refusing admission to children when there were places available that is both legally and morally wrong. Any parent who appeals in that situation is both legally and morally right.

How extraordinary.
I would have thought that those children are at that school either because their local school was full, or because their parents prefer to send their children there. As there is space in the school (clearly) why on earth shouldn't they take children from outside of the catchment?
It's bizarre to think that a school might be operating at less than capacity while parents want their children to go there.

This is nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of appeals. This is a state school. Surely its places should be available to children who want them regardless of whether they live in a defined catchment or not?

You posted while I was typing! But you are correct. If a school has places available they MUST be made available to anyone who wants them. That is the law.

This sounds odd. The school that my DDs goes to has a lot of out of catchment children in it, and the school have always encouraged this, as the funding that they get is related to the number of children in the school.
Bit odd for cliques to develop - the catchment area must be tiny if everyone knows for sure who lives in the catchment and who doesnt.

Ah, suddenly Prh47 makes it all clear.

I think the "school community" should get a grip. You can't pick and choose who goes to school with little Tarquin when you send him to a state school. If they want to behave like that they should pay up and go private.

I think that haliborange has hit the nail on the head. I suspect in the past the school have been playing the system and for some reason they have been rumbled. The school community do see it very much as their school and there is a whiff of colonisation to the whole ethos. It will be interesting over the next few years how the dynamic shapes up and wether some catchment parents opt for private. perhaps this situation is symptomatic of a small village school just beyond the city and suburbia - dare i say it an enclave. It's interesting that the existing education system has both parents and (apparently) schools playing the system in different ways. Hopefully we can all learn something from the impending diversity and dispel the assumption that outsiders are free loaders when the reality could be that anyone prepared to drop off and collect their children from school on a daily basis obviously care about education and probably have something very positive to bring to the community.

You may also find, that as budgets are squeezed, the school will start to need to get as many "bums on seats" as possible as schools are funded on the number of pupils on role. This will mean filling any available places with children from outside the catchment.

In the village where I live, house prices are extremely high, and as such, lots of houses are owned by older couples, with children who have left home. The school therefore relies on families from outside the catchment to fill the empty spaces in the school.

Without them, the school would cease to be viable, and may face closure.

In some respects you could almost be talking about my village school. For the last 7 or 8 years demand in catchment has been high and as a small school the PAN was 20, all places were filled from sibling and catchment and then last year, the year we were aplying for our dd the demand was so high that one catchment child didn't get in and non or the out of catchment siblings got in however a new reception class room was going to be build and ready in the January, when everyone went to apeal they all got in without going through to stage 2 with the schools blessing, they could now have over 20 as the reception class would not be a Y1 mix class, classed wouldn't go into mixed classes until KS2. So we had 26 in the reception class and it was all good. When the aplications came to start this september I was surprised to see on a frieds pack that the PAN was still 20. When places were awarded all catchment and siblings got in no problem, first low birth year for a long time, a couple of people with no conections to the village got in and then I don't know if it was by apeal or not but the phrase being used is 'the LEA made them take some more out of catchment apbove the PAN' making it a class of 23. The diference it seems from the op's school is that every parent is welcomed and part of the school community if they are catchment or not.

What is the meaning of "freeloaders" in this context - are the locals paying school fees and the outsiders getting in for "free"? Feel sorry for you guys, the school community sounds awful - it's really shitty attitude.

Somebody is spinning a tale here.

The only way that the school can take more than the PAN of 20 is by agreement between the school and the LA taking into consideration the effect on all other local schools. Whilst i would accept that the LA can apply pressure, the reality is that if the school had said the PAN is 20 and we are not taking any more the LA would have found it quite difficult to get the extra 3 in. They could have done but not without a lot of hassle!

In going to appeal, a panel would have taken consideration of the current situation at the school (a new classroom), what happened last year at appeals and what the real situation is looking forward. My guess would be that the PAN will move up in Sept 11 with the new classroom having been taken into consideration, it does take a long time to get this reviewed and agreed. The panel were of the opinion that a nice new classroom with 20 in but built for 30 could not be considered full! Hence 3 appealants were admitted. Whether they were catchment or not is completely irrelevant to the panel.

I think the school is blaming the LA as it is convenient to do so in talking about local school for local kids, but I think they better get used to having upto 30 in the infant classes and that will include those who are not so local!

If it's a VA or VC school, and it doesn't fill the places on it's roll, be prepared to see the Local Authority close it down and bus your kids to a neighbouring village or area!

Of course if there are places available they should (and must by law) be made available to children who want / need them! Waht an extraordinary atitude from the governors. fundraising committee and 'school community'. It sounds more like a nasty snobby, inward looking Bullingdon Club than a 'community'!

that makes our school look really bad admission lol! The reality is I don't know what happened as it's nothing to do with me, I only know the whispers at the gate, the new class room is lovely and could easerly take 30 children however the other class rooms are really quite small and while infant class size isn't relevant when it comes to key stage two there is the matter of how big the class rooms are and the fact there is no way in hell you could squeese 45 children into a class room designed for class sizes of 30 max (the 45 number comes from the fact we have to split year 5 between year 4 and year 6 due to being a class room short so if there were 30 in each year group though out the school you would end up with classes of 45).
These has never ever been any bad feeling or snobbery to families who come to our school out of catchment and with no preivious ties to the village, why should there be, all the children who live in catchment have a place, there is nothing to be uperty about and as someone else said, if places weren't filled funding would not be there and we would be fighting to keep the school open!
I think the thimg this year and the talk of the LEA 'forseing the hand' of the goveners (CofE voletry aided school) to take over the PAN of 20 is that there is a massive shortage of school places in the nearest town and city, the schools there are as full as they can be without breaking infant class size regs so the LEA have turned to our school and said you have space for a few more and as far as I know the school have had no problems with this, happy to have the extra (within reason given the bottle neck situation that would happen further up the school), things happen in 4 years, my dd's class for reception last year started with 25, gained an extra last moment through cat 1 so by first half term we were 26, when the class go into year one in September there will be 24 as 2 children have sadly had to leave us due to home moves, there is not allot of movement in our school but there is some. I guess what I am trying to say is I commented as in some ways the school the op talked about was allot like ours however with ours its not a problem, there is no them and us, we are just one (I would say very happy) school community, however you got into the school or where ever you live.

The context for the term 'free loader' is that the school has a very strong board of governors who are village people (he he) and a fundraising committee that is very active and made up of affluent middle class mums with time on their hands. So all the extra's at the school are funded/provided by the committee. Outsiders are not generally part of this hierarchy because they are not part of the clique and often have less comfortable lifestyles which mean the mums often work and are not available for meetings/events and simply cannot afford to donate anything like the level of some etc. Therefore they are freeloaders because they do not contribute. On a more shocking note i heard a rumour that in the past the govenors have held meetings about how to keep outsiders out . Scandalous i know.

That really is a horrible attitude from the governors and fundraising committee, swissrole. It sounds like the governors could do with some balanced opinions! Any chance you might be interested in running as a parent governor?

TBh your school sounds unbearable.

Where I grew up a lot of the village schools closed because only retirees could afford to live there.

Thank Goodness the LEA has your school rumbled. If you want to keep your school exclusive then cough up for private. These schools are funded by all taxpayers and should be open to all according to the rules.