The supernatural and 21st Century.

[Breton1900]

Here we are coming to the end of the first decade of the 21st Century. We know more about the world, ourselves, and the universe than ever before and this knowledge is growing year on year.

Yet many in the West, with all its advantages of technology and universal education, still feel the need to hold to beliefs that the scientific and rational would consider "the comforts of unreason".

What is it about some humans that seems to desire an acceptance of something supernatural?

Only because there is such a lot that science doesn't explain for me. And because my life is richer for believing in thing sthat are outside of my understanding.

I have no problem with the possibility that it could all be in my subconscious or that my brain may just be wired that way, but is that a problem? I can't do anything about that.

And sometimes it's nice to go along with something 'other' because rationalising it is, well, dull. So actually on reflection I guess I do choose a proportion of my beliefs. But then doesn't everyone? I like my beliefs and what I do, it makes me happy.

By "supernatural" do you mean things which have not yet been explained, or things which could not be explained by a complete scientific understanding of every single aspect of the universe?

I don't believe that there is anything which could not (in theory) be explained by science. But I do believe in things which have not yet been explained by science and which quite possibly never will be, due to the limitations of human understanding.

eg human consciousness can be defined and to some extent explained, but I don't think it is ever going to be possible for humans to truly understand every aspect of it, because they are using their own consciousness to try to explain itself.

There may be other aspects of the way the universe works which are similarly beyond our capacity to define and explain.

I also think that some scientifc discpline is beginning to understand that the 'supernatural' (i.e. things that defy explanation) actually forms a part of scientific understanding, isn't it?

Interesting points here.

I don't have a desire to accept something supernatural (if by that you mean things which have not yet or cannot be explained)but, as spiritmum has said my life IMO is much much richer due to the experiences I have had and I cannot explain them fully or let others know 'what' happened or 'how.'

They are real for me in my reality, but if I were to explain them to another - they may pass it off as me going crazy. That would be fine, as I too cannot explain either.

All science is not for me all that rational - in fact many scientific points of view are theories, and I see no reason to believe that science has the answer for everything.

Are you talking about spirit contact, UFOs, aliens or something else?

Just something else which I thought of - does GOD come under supernatural?

Yes, God does count as supernatural. But most people in everyday conversation tend to use it to refer to ghosts and stuff, IME. I'm guessing Breton means anything that doesn't have a scientific explanation.

Thanks spiritmum, will wait and see. I was reading in another post that many people believe there is a god, but yet cannot or do not believe that our soul/spirit lives after our body has died. All interesting.
I base my beliefs on my own experiences, afterall - whose else beliefs am I going to experience

I think many people hold to the "comforts of unreason" because, well, they're comforting. A strictly rational view of existence says that there is no meaning to life other than what me make and that the universe as a whole couldn't care less about us. That's more than a bit stark.

I am absolutely convinced that at some point we will be able to devise and build a machine that can detect certain types of electro magnetic energy that surrounds all living creatures, including humans. Yes, a machine that can see auras. And no the Kirlian photography thing doesn't quite convince me - I want to see something like an aura reader / airport metal detector!

I am able to see the human aura so I can tell y'all if the machine is switched on and working properly...

What types of electromagnetic energy are auras, then?

Oooh, Nemo, I'd love to be able to see auras! I can sense them, but I can't see them (yet ).

Agree with you re aura photography, I once had a photograph and aura reading and although it looked beautiful it was way off the mark as to what was going on in my life.

I wonder if it is easier somehow to feel able to abdicate total responsibility

perhaps this is part of the sense of freedom that believing in the supernatural can bring.

I also think there will always be supernatural things...once it was very basic scientifically explained stuff, which we can mock but in those days they didn't know why...now we have replaced those phenomena with the stuff we don't understand.

There will always be that element I think however much we learn.

Flightattendant, I believe in the supernatural but I also believe that the only person who can save me is me, and I'm saving myself for this life because I can only live in teh hope of some kind of afterlife, not the certainty of it. But I find the thought that I redeem myself profoundly liberating, in fact it was a major turning pint in me reclaiming my personal power.

And when I was a Christian I was unhappy a lot of the time because although in some ways it was freeing, I was always questioning what I did to see if it 'measured up', and I felt a huge amount of guilt.

What I do really love about the supernatural is the wildness of it. I love the fact that there s so much to explore, so much that is unknown, things that are unseen. That's where I find the freedom in it, in the wildness.

there is no supernatural, i really did belive when i was younger and was very interested in all things other wordly, now i see it for what it really is, entertainment and religion is for keeping people in their place.

Interesting thread. I've been reading a book called The Spiritual Brain by Beauregard and O'leary. Seems quite thorough. Presents all the arguments for the question did god create the brain or does the brain create god?

I am of the opinion that we need the relaxed state of conscious acccessed by spiritual experiences. However these are created I think we must need them to be more healthy, balanced humans. As other posters have said life is dull otherwise and actually in today's high paced world, escape is important. That said i am not waiting for someone to take responsibility for me. I must take responsibility for myself and my actions.

Personally my current interest in the above book is from the shamanic/other world point of view - not really ghosts but what happens when a shaman visits another world. Where is that other world - in their head or a defined or omnipresent place? And do all shamans therefore access the same 'world' or is it individually different?

My life's mission is to search for the truth or at least my truth anyway.

I dunno what kind of electro magnetic energy the aura is made up of - don't think anyone else does either, but one day we will.

Tesla did a lot of interesting stuff / experiments / theories wrt electromagnetic energy and such. Also Dr Harry Oldfield, although he is a bit barking I think, still very interesting though, wrt electromagnetic fields around crystals.

I think the supernatural isn't as 'weird' as a lot of people think. For instance, I don't think there are such supernatural creatures as vampires, however, for me, spirits of the dead, telepathy, precognition and so on are perhaps unbelieveable but nonetheless clearly the 'supernormal' functions of the human mind / human energy, we just don't understand it all yet.

I don't many of us have the foggiest idea of what we are, or what we are capable of. Carl Jung, the collective unconcious, says it all for me.

Nah fuck it, the only thing that's real is accountancy, ASDA and Coronation Street. As you were

Thanks for the responses - some interesting ideas and opinions. I think we should be wary of dismissing some science as mere "theory" as I'm sure there are plenty on these boards who can explain the difference between what, in general parlance, is termed a theory (i.e. a hunch) and a scientific theory!

I hold the view that Snorbs expressed. Some may consider it a rather bleak view but I regard today's tendency to almost obsessive anthropocentrism as narcissistic and dangerous.

When I look up at the night sky I realise how completely irrelevant but also how incredibly fragile our home planet, and all its diversity of life, actually is.

Oh and yes, Gods and Goddesses are included in the supernatural!

As Ben Franklyn put it, the only things we can be certain about in life are Death and Taxes!

In my time I have been a committed Christian, an agnostic and a atheist, a humanist and hedonist and I am now revelling in and loving the discovery of my Pagan self.

I would say that I feel much more whole and complete with a belief and recognition of my life as part of a web of conciousness in the Universe.

I share with Breton an awe and wonder that is sparked by the Night Sky, by a leaf floating on water, by planting a bean in April and harvesting the bounty it produces today to feed my loved ones.

I envisage the life force as Goddess, and love to read of Hecate, Demeter, Rhiannon and Bridget as they embody facets of creation and life, but I don't 'worship' them as such. The Goddess to me is present in all of Nature and life, and I call on her for guidance, for strength, for joy.

This belief has reinvigorated my interest in science and research into how this Universe works. I definately don't see my beliefs and science as mutually exclusive.

I am so lucky to be living now when I won't be excluded from the society I live in, burned alive, drowned or hurt in some way for my beliefs. People calling my way of life 'hippy shit' might sting a little but I am self aware enough to laugh at myself. Ten years ago I would have never believed that I would be so content with such simplicity in my life.

I love this, The Charge of The Goddess.

Nemofish and AlderTree could not your views and beliefs be dealt with by rational explanations?

The application of electrical stimuli to various parts of the brain can bring about "out of body" feelings which have been associated with visiting other worlds and/or alien abductions. As for auras - have these ever been filmed/recorded?

I ask because there are several well known debunkers of various beliefs in the supernatural. James Randi has laid down a challenge to bend some metal bars that no one has yet taken up, including that great (fake) bar and spoon bender, Uri Geller. Derren Brown did a very interesting programme about a Liverpudlian psychic who made a lot of vaunted claims that could not be substantiated. The psychic got rather annoyed when Brown told him about the set up.

Yes Breton - that is what I am saying!
Auras = electromagnetic field around the human body.
Reiki energy - in tests those giving reiki have an electromagnetic field around their hands which is between 10% and 15% stronger that the norm. Reiki evergy is just a type of energy, which the human brain is capable of 'gathering' and then 'channeling' into others. Science just hasn't 'discovered' it yet, we do not have the scientific means at this point to further analyse and study it.

For instance, you could theorise that Fairies are real - but only if you think they are. (hundreds of years of belief have created the little beggars - they have become independant thought forms. Don't know if the thing about everytime you say you don't believe one dies though. For the record, I don't actually believe in fairies, until I witness something that would suggest otherwise.

I suppose I don't believe in the 'silly supernatural.' I don't believe in Atlantis or Lemuria or whatever. Or archangel Metatron. There I said it! Those things are not, currently, in my realm of experience, but hey, I'll keep an open mind, but not so open my brain will fall out.

I recieve e-mails from a couple with a buusiness selling crystals, after Barak Obama was elected, they e-mailed me telling me that the wife had been channelling archangel metatron and he says that Obama is going to be killed in an assassination stylee during October 2009. Well, a) that is so not helpful, and b) if archangel metatron thinks it's a good idea to give this info to a middle aged woman in Surrey, well fine, but I think he could have chosen better, and c) oh fuck off.

Sorry, I'm confused - if those who practise reiki have been measured to have a 10-15% stronger electromagnetic field around their hands, then surely those who were doing the measuring would've noticed what type of field it was?

After all, you need to know what kind of electromagnetic energy it is before you can measure it. A detector designed to measure, say, low-frequency radio waves would be crap at detecting microwaves.

I've got no idea, Snorbs. I've never been measured when using Reiki. But I do know that when I'm channeling Reiki my hands get hot as stink.

My dh doesn't like reiki because it freaks him out, but he does get me to treat his cricket injuries.

I agree with Nemo, one day we'll understand scientifically what it is and how it works.

Ooh snorbs I don't know. I read that in an article a looong time ago. Not in the Daily Mail though, promise.

But I think that there must be something different about it, otherwise a standard electromagnetic field (whatever that may be?!) would do the job of reiki, which I don't think it would do.

My dh thought I was full of shit, frankly, before I did reiki on him. My daughter wasn't too keen as a toddler, I would raise my hand behind her back when she was ill, and she would snap 'no mummy, no ey-ki!'

She loves it now though, requests it whenever she bumps herself. Which makes me feel like a bit of a hippy mum...