DD1 (4yo) won't go to bed. I don't know what to do.

[TickledOnion]

DD1 has been a great sleeper for ages and bedtime was never a problem until the last few weeks. Suddenly she's started refusing to go to bed and I've given in and let her watch tv downstairs as I don't know what else to do. Most nights she will just watch for half an hour and will go to bed happily at 7:30 but the last couple of nights it has been 9pm before she will admit she is tired.

I know this is not good for her but she will continually come out of her room and will think up a million excuses and make herself cry which I'm worried will wake DD2 (2yo) up.

I've told her that there won't be any tv tomorrow night so any ideas what I should do?
I could stay upstairs with her and keep putting her back while her cries get louder and louder.
I could let her come down and refuse to put the tv on. She will follow me round while I do chores, eat dinner and read a book but maybe she'll get bored before 9.
Any other ideas?

Watching with interest. This is my DD too. She goes through phases of doing this and we really struggle to find a solution

Just keep putting her back to bed.

Do not stay upstairs with her.

It might take one night it might take 10, but she will get the message.

I wouldn't let her come downstairs and I wouldn't stay with her.

Could you insist that even if she doesn't sleep, she must stay in her room. She could read/play quietly. My ds will do this if I put him to bed and he can't sleep, he never tries to get out of his room though wish he had the same thoughtfullness at 5am!

It's light and hot. If she goes happily at 7.30pm, that isn't terrible in the holidays.

I'd just put her back in her room each and every time she comes out. It might take your hours the first night though. Probably better then next night and after 3 night's you'll have cracked it. You could always tell her she could look at books / play with dolls etc but she has to stay in her room.

We had this problem recently. It drove me potty. I've managed to improve things alot by making bedtime later, I think they just weren't tired by their previous bedtime anymore. But I also banned screen time after 5pm as I read it interferes with sleep hormones in the 2 hours before bed. Mine are a similar age btw, 4yo and 2yo.

This may not work for you but it did for us! I guess the key thing I learned though which may help is that I need to think outside the box. Everyone wad telling me 'sounds's like they're overtired, bedtime should be earlier'. When it dawned on me I need to do the opposite the results were immediate :o

lougle 7:30 was fine and I thought it was working but it's crept up to gone 9 now.

The problem with putting her back in her room is that she makes up things she "needs" to tell me. So I either engage in conversation or she starts to cry. I did the putting back thing about 20 times tonight and then gave in and let her watch tv as she was working herself up into a state and I was worried the noise would wake dd2.

lighteningmcmama I moved her bedtime to 7:30 as she had started complaining of not being tired at 7. I thought that seemed reasonable but now she is definitely overtired. She had an overtired tantrum at 6:30 tonight.

If she's getting overtired at 6:30 then maybe you're missing the window?

When does she eat? What's her bedtime routine?

Maybe it might be worth putting her down earlier?

Instead of her watching television maybe do something just for you and her just for half an hour beyond her normal bed time followed by a story, it seems as if she is craving your attention. Our eldest (5) likes playing board games with us once her younger sister and brother have gone to bed, easier without the toddler there to mess them up and it would give you the chance to talk too.

Talk it through with her at a neutral point during the day. Say 'there's a new rule tonight, no tv at bedtime and you must stay in your room after 7.30', you can read if you're not tired. Then ask her to tell you in her words what the rule is. Repeat a couple of times. Then at night time stay up there and if she comes out, ask what the rule is a praise her if she says it/goes back in. If she doesn't just put her back in. Told give in with the tv again as it will just set a precedent. Good luck!

Also, make sure she has enough exercise during the day.

DrJuno there's a definite window and I could put her to bed earlier but DD2 sleeps 7-7 so I'd have to put her to bed too otherwise DD1 would complain (which would lead to crying, screaming and preventing DD1 sleeping).

AnotherStitchInTime she'd like that but at the moment it would feel like I'm rewarding her. I might try that anyway for the half hour between 7 and 7:30.

I'm so frustrated at myself. I don't give in on anything else important normally. If it wasn't for DD1's sleep I'd be perfectly happy for her to scream and cry till she tired herself out.

I did a call back thing with DS, although he was a bit older. It was basically 3 cards with 'call back' written on them blue tacked to his door frame. Every time DS called me back or got out of bed once I'd put his light out, he had to use a card. Then in the morning, he got a point for every unused card, and every 10 points he got a prize. It worked very quickly for us!

This may sound a bit harsh, and I'm prepared to be corrected, but it sounds as if you are allowing her to dictate what happens in the evenings because you are afraid that DD2 will be disrupted.

Yes, she may be. But it will only be for a few nights while you get this sorted.

I would say that you are allowing that fear to prevent you from putting an appropriate plan in place. Currently you are giving DD1 the message that if she persists long enough, you will give up. That's not good at all.

Have you done the obvious of having a blackout blind in her bedroom, so that it's properly dark?

Is her room cool enough?

Do you have a partner who can attend to DD2 if she wakes while you focus on DD1?

Not harsh IsItMeOr. You are right and that's why it's so frustrating.
It's fairly dark in her room but very warm. I keep the windows open when we are home during the day but close them when they go to bed. I don't know if it would make any difference if they were open as the blackout blind is fairly close to the window.

No partner to help. DD1 could sleep to ExH's or gp's house but that would feel like a punishment for DD2.

My almost-4yo has done the same for the past few weeks. I'm thinking it's the warm weather and the fact that it's still so light.
We're just carrying on as normal, putting him to bed between 7-8pm, going up once if he shouts, then saying no more shouting (a couple of times I've sat outside his room and caught him coming out and sent him right back to bed). Sometimes he gets the message quickly, other times he doesn't (once it was 10pm before he went to sleep and we were all exhausted), but it's the only way I can see to deal with it - he still needs the same amount of sleep and we can't lie-in on a week day.

The thing is... it's hot and it's the school holidays. My two are 6 and 4, lately they have been still running around the garden at 7 and not actually going to sleep til 9ish.

You gave in - she knows she's got you !!! Put back, don't say anything, don't stay. Continue ad infinitum refusing to speak or engage in anything. She will kick off, cry, scream and tantrum. Do NOT give in. Supernanny ALWAYS wins with this method

So do I sit outside her room and so that I can put her back every time she comes out? She came out about 20 times in 10 minutes. There isn't time to go downstairs before she comes out again.

It's not really school holidays for us. DDs are at a private nursery twice a week and with gps the other 2 days that I'm at work. They still have to be up at 7 so I can get to work on time.

Ds did this - dn still does sometimes. Rule: once upstairs, you leave your room only to go to the toilet. Toilet or bedroom, and a few nights returning ds to bed every time he came out of the room and didn't swear he needed the loo.
Read a couple Terry Pratchetts and ran a Twitter sweepstake on how many times he'd need to be returned to his room (47 I think was the worst night). After about a week it's usually been ok, just a fair few requests to be "tucked in properly" and random toys found and water getting, all of which are basically code for getting a bit of attention.

Yep, keep persisting and she will get the message eventually. It's bloody exhausting but be consistent and stick with it and it will work in the end!

OP I do sympathise, 2 very small dds and working 4 days AND being a single parent is tough. Hats off to you. I can see that this is madly frustrating and remember having a similar issue with my dds a various times. This is what I would do for an evening routine. . .

Depending on what time you get home from work.

Dinner, bath, NO telly (I agree with the person upthread who suggested that screens disrupt sleep patterns), pjs on, snuggly stories with both of them, put dd2 to bed at 6.45. Then have 30 mins 1 - 1 with dd1, reading a special book or chatting, nothing too exciting but very definitely 1 - 1 time. Then bed at 7.15/30. Then as others have said, do not engage too much after that. Put her back to bed firmly but kindly. Do not stay and chat and do not let her downstairs.

Great ideas from others about agreements, stickers charts, rewards etc.

Good luck, it's very hard but persistence pays off.

Ok. My plan is to do half an hour of board games from 7-7:30. She will love that as we never get to play them without DD2 disturbing us.
Then continual return to bed. I'll warn her that that's what I'm going to do. I'll read my book outside her room and count the number of times I have to return her. I will ignore the screaming and crying and particularly the crying about why daddy can't be here. (And I will try not to cry about that when she does). And I will pray that DD1 doesn't wake up.
Wish me luck for tomorrow.