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Original poster

Shocked at childminder I saw today!

62 replies

Demented · 24/08/2004 12:12

I've just come back from picking DS1 up at School (he has just started so is only going in the mornings at the moment) to see a lady I know as a childminder who minds a number of children who go to the school. At the moment she is looking after a baby (6 or 9 months) and I witnessed her getting into the back of a car with the baby on her knee and putting the seatbelt round herself and the baby. I was right up beside the car so was in no doubt that this was what was happening. She also had a little girl, aged about 5 (she has just started school too) and this girl was in the front seat (the car was a J reg Passat so I'm not sure if it would have a front airbag or not).

Needless to say I am absolutely shocked and horrified that someone who has left their child in the hands of someone who from what I have seen seems to be an extremely experienced and capable childminder probably doesn't know what is happening. I realise this could be a one-off but as someone who is extremely paranoid about car safety to the extent that DH once came to collect DS1 and myself when DS1 was tiny and forgot the car seat we took the bus home instead.

!!!

OP posts:

SoupDragon · 24/08/2004 12:32

Putting the seatbelt round a baby on her lap is unforgivable - one off or not.

DS1 (5) sits in the front of our airbagged car sometimes, on a booster seat with a seat belt adjuster and the main seat way back.

iota · 24/08/2004 12:39

SD I thought that you weren't supposed to put a booster seat in the front if there is an airbag - I never do it with my kids - although I had to give another 5 yr old child a lift home once and his mum was OK about it.

SoupDragon · 24/08/2004 12:41

The complete no no for air bags is a rear facing car seat. A child on a forward facing booster seat withthe main seat as far back as possible is (whilst not ideal) OK. The safest place for children remains the rear seats of a car.

He only gets to sit there if we're on a short journey with just me and him or if the back is full with other children.

SoupDragon · 24/08/2004 12:42

I would never put another person's child in the front without their express permission though. Guest children always travel in the rear.

Twinkie · 24/08/2004 12:43

Children should not sit in the front of a car until they are at least 12 years of age - it is all about the safety features in cars (SIBs etc.) being designed to protect the physical form of an adult not a child.

DD at no time travels in a car where she cannot sit in the back in her car seat.

iota · 24/08/2004 12:51

From the AA

"What if I drive more children than can be buckled safely in the back seat?"
Avoid this situation, especially if your car has passenger air bags. However, in an emergency, place the child most likely to sit in the proper forwardfacing position in the front seat, with the vehicle seat moved as far back as possible. A child in a forward-facing car safety seat with a harness may be the best choice because a child who is in a booster seat or using a regular seat belt can more easily move out of position and be at greater risk for injuries from the air bag.

I definitely wouldn't risk it with my kids

iota · 24/08/2004 12:51

I meant from the AAP

iota · 24/08/2004 12:55

Advice from ROSPA

Passenger Airbag in Front of Car
It is safer to put children, including babies, in the rear of the car. Some parents prefer to put babies in the front so they can keep an eye on them. However, it is very dangerous to put a rearward-facing baby seat in the front if there is an airbag fitted on the passenger side. The baby seat will be very close to the dashboard and if the airbag went off it would strike the baby seat with considerable force.

It is not as dangerous to fit forward-facing seats in the front when there is an airbag present (although it is still better to put them in the rear), but make sure that the car seat is as far back as possible and the child seat is securely held to maximise the distance between the child and the airbag.

Solution
Fit rearward facing baby seats in the rear of the car. If you feel (for medical reasons, for instance) that the baby needs to be constantly monitored, find an adult to sit with the baby.

If you must put a forward-facing seat in the front when there is an airbag present (make sure that the car seat is as far back as possible and the child seat is securely held to maximise the distance between the child and the airbag.

It may be possible to have the passenger airbag de-activated or removed, although this means that any adult passenger sitting in the front will no longer have the extra protection offered by the airbag. Check with the car manufacturer and follow their advice.

SoupDragon · 24/08/2004 13:01

I can't find anything that said children under 12 should not sit, properly restrained/seat well back, in the front seat of a car. Anyway, it's all to do with height rather than age as seatbelts are designed for people over 5ft tall. So, any shorties out there, you shouldn't be in the front of a car without a booster seat!

iota · 24/08/2004 13:17

SD - I agree that the 2 sites I quoted don't say you ABSOLUTELY shouldn't do it, but the AAP says AVOID this situation and only do it in an emergency, ROSPA says 'It is SAFER to put children, including babies, in the rear of the car'

So I always make mine travel in the back as it is safer.

sportyspice · 24/08/2004 13:26

That is awful!! The childminder is being trusted (and paid) to look after the most precious thing in the parents lives and she should no better than to take such an irresponsible risk. No one ever thinks they're going to crash so one off or not it could happen anytime....if they were my children i'd want to know about it.

JanH · 24/08/2004 13:35

It's not just height, soupy, it's strength of neck and size of head - children have larger heads and weaker necks proportionately. IYSWIM.

JanH · 24/08/2004 13:39

I knew I'd looked this stuff up before - found old post:

hatter · 24/08/2004 13:44

hi demented,

hate to say this but I think, if I were you, I would look to see if there were something I could do about this. Strapping the baby onto her lap is incredibly dangerous. Anything that meant an emergency brake (ie, not even an accident, just a dog running out into the road) would cause the baby serious injuries. Maybe you should consider looking at your local council website and/or offsted to see if there's anything you can do. Or, maybe you can try to talk to the parents - if you know them - could be tricky, as they might be defensive, ie think you are questionning their judgement. I know it all seems a bit sneaky, and I know it's not your responsibility, but it really is serious.

JanH · 24/08/2004 13:52

Also this bit (from babycentre. )

poppyseed · 24/08/2004 13:52

Does anyone else agree that there is conflicting advice out there? What seems to be the law may not actually be the safest option for our children. We have recently put DD (5) back into a high backed booster seat to give her greater safety and head protection when she is asleep on long journeys. I had no idea about the passenger air bag and safety question with older children, and I consider myself to be reasonably well informed.. How on earth is Joe Bloggs to know about stuff like this, assuming he/she doesn't have access to the internet and fab advice given by mumsnetters??! Do you agree that there needs to be much more publicity on this?? Oh no I can feel a rant starting!

iota · 24/08/2004 14:02

JanH thanks for those links - I knew I was right!

Poppyseed - ds1 is in Reception and we were all given a safety booklet by the school which had a lot of this stuff in it. Even so I am shocked by the no of parents who put their 5 to 8 yr olds in the front of their cars - and I'm always a little concerned when someone wants to pick up ds1 after school for a playdate.....

suedonim · 24/08/2004 14:13

Poppyseed, we've just bought dd2 a new highback booster seat and it says very clearly in the instrucions and on the seat itself that it shouldn't be used with airbags. It's a Maxi-Cosi Rodi XP.

hercules · 24/08/2004 14:15

What do you do with a rearward facing carseat. I always put dd in the fron seat (no airbag) so she can see me and I can see her.

What does everyone else do?

iota · 24/08/2004 14:20

Herecules - I always put both of my babies in the back at all times - if you put the car seat in the back seat behind the front passenger seat you can see the baby reasonably well...and if you stop the car you can reach over to the baby

poppyseed · 24/08/2004 14:25

Haven't seen anything from school and the car seat we bought was a graco junior and I'm afraid that I probably didn't read the tags on it . I know what you mean about other people's parents picking your child up though. Our DD is laughed at because she sits on a 'baby seat' by her friends and they are allowed to sit straight onto the car seat. I honestly want to say something but I know what will happen if my big mouth opens! I just make sure that we have loads of booster seats spare for friends and I always do the driving if I can.

hercules · 24/08/2004 14:26

I'll do that now Iota too.

DS also gets laughed at for having a baby seat by his friends! (booster)

iota · 24/08/2004 14:34

At the risk of becoming completely evangelical about this, I've just found these stats from Handbag.com

In 2002, 35 children aged under 12 were killed and 480 seriously injured while travelling in cars. Although older children may protest against having to use a booster or car seat, research from the Department for Transport shows that many parents stop using child car seats far too soon. Adult seatbelts will not fit them properly and will put them at higher risk of injury, in particular to the chest, lungs, abdomen and spine, in comparison to a purpose-built child seat.

The Department for Transport's new THINK! road-safety campaign is urging parents to use child car seats or boosters for their children until they are at least 11 years old or 150cm tall (roughly 5ft). Rather worryingly, the Department's research indicated that:

63% of parents stopped using child car seats for their children when they were aged six or younger
One in 10 parents had stopped using child car seats for their children by the time they were three years old
Only 41% of parents of children aged seven to nine and just 26% of those with children aged 10 to 11 said that their child always travels in a child car seat.

millipede · 24/08/2004 14:36

I'm even more confused about the whole airbag issue now. DS (just 7) normally sits in the front (we have an airbag, but I always have the seat as far back as it will go). The reason for this is that he and his sister fight so much, and I mean physical, screaming fights, despite my best efforts at providing tapes, games, tv etc, that it was becoming more dangerous and more distracting to my driving to have them together. He has minor behavioural problems that he sees a pyschologist for, and any trips longer than 20 minutes are a nightmare for him.
Oh the guilt, guilt, guilt.

Original poster

Demented · 24/08/2004 14:50

I know what you mean Hatter I do feel as if I should do something about it. The problem is I don't know the childminder herself (not even her name) and I don't know the parents of the children in her care, as the parents work so are rarely at the School, the parents of the baby may not have children at the school. I also wonder if this is something she has cleared with the parents of the baby, although I cannot imagine ever saying to someone 'that's fine, just strap her in with you on your knee' . Firstly who would I make a complaint to? Could it be done anonymously? and Would a description of the childminder and the name of the School she drops the children off at/picks them up from suffice?

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