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Original poster

Mixed age ratios

32 replies

pitterpatterrain · 25/04/2016 17:16

Just picked DD up from nursery. She is 2.5 and there were 9 DC and 2 staff. 5 under 2's. One that I know over 3, one 3 next month.

The manager insists they are in ratio due to being mixed age groups and it being 1:5 for that.

I just can't see it. Can someone help me please?

OP posts:
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TiggyD · 25/04/2016 20:14

Bollocks.

0-2 year old children need 1:3
2-3 year old children need 1:4
3+ need 1:8

In the old days you could mix 2-5 year old children for a ration of 1:6, but not now. They were out of ratio and are lying to you.

Original poster
pitterpatterrain · 25/04/2016 21:41

Thanks much appreciated. Have felt I am somehow mis-reading what is out there as they have been pretty strong when I call it out.

I have asked them for evidence for the ratio guidelines that they are trying to say is true, as I couldn't find anything to support their assertion. Pretty fed up and sad as this is the second time I have complained about ratios and been fobbed off.

OP posts:
nannynick · 25/04/2016 21:56

When doing ratios, I use a points system.
A 3-5 year old is 3 points. A 2 year old is 6 points. A under 2 is 8 points.
Each adult has a total of 24 points.
This means they could have 8 x 3 year olds = 8 x 3 = 24.
They could have 4 x 2-3 year olds = 6 x 4 = 24
They could have 3 x Under 2s = 3 x 8 = 24

So 5 x two years, 2 aged 2-3 and 1 aged 3 plus would be 40 points plus 12 points + 3 points, giving total of 55 points. So two staff (48 points) is not enough, would need to be 3 staff (72 points).

Hope that makes sense.

The manager is not in ratio, so them being in the building does not make a difference.

Katymac · 25/04/2016 21:59

Tiggy & Nick are 100% right Grin

Unless OSFTED changed the rules & forgot to tell all three of us possible but somehow unlikely as we are all in different areas

Original poster
pitterpatterrain · 25/04/2016 21:59

Thanks nanny Makes sense.
No idea where they are getting their mysterious 1:5. Will be booking an appt to follow up, and in the meantime likely looking for another nursery options.

OP posts:
Original poster
pitterpatterrain · 25/04/2016 22:01

Thanks katy bit of a cross post there

The manager was pretty (very) insistent that I was wrong and everything was ok so I had a bit of a wobble - thanks all for reassuring me.

OP posts:
TiggyD · 25/04/2016 22:02

And there's absolutely no way that they don't know what the ratios are either. They've not changed for 10 years and they're one of the most fundamental rules in childcare.

Jojay · 25/04/2016 22:12

Do the same ratios apply in a preschool setting out of interest? What about rising 3's in that situation? Should they be 1:4 or 1:8, given that they're 2, not 3?

Jojay · 25/04/2016 22:12

Do the same ratios apply in a preschool setting out of interest? What about rising 3's in that situation? Should they be 1:4 or 1:8, given that they're 2, not 3?

Whosthemummy16 · 25/04/2016 22:16

The 1:8 ratio starts at 2 years 9 months.
They aren't in ratio, my last nursery will drop to a ratio of 1:3 if they have a mixed group of ages just to be safe!
There should of been two members of staff for the under twos alone.

Jojay · 25/04/2016 22:22

Thanks whosethemummy.

Do you have a link to somewhere official confirming the 1:8 at 2.9mths by any chance? There's ongoing debate at work in the subject! Thank you.

Jojay · 25/04/2016 22:22

Thanks whosethemummy.

Do you have a link to somewhere official confirming the 1:8 at 2.9mths by any chance? There's ongoing debate at work in the subject! Thank you.

Jojay · 25/04/2016 22:23

Arrhh! It keeps posting twice! Sorry....

charliesweb · 25/04/2016 22:35

The 1:4 ratio is until a child's 3rd birthday.
When calculating mixed age ratios you always go to the lowest age. So in a group of 9 with 5 2yos you would need 3 adults.
1:4 2yos
1:4 (1 2yo and 3 3/4 yo)
1 for the remaining 3/4 yo

The manager can count in ratio if they are within sight or sound of the children.

The information on ratios can be found by following the links on this site:

www.foundationyears.org.uk/eyfs-statutory-framework/

TiggyD · 25/04/2016 22:53

The 1:8 ratio starts at 3 years, not so much as a day earlier.

TiggyD · 25/04/2016 23:00

Premature postulation!

The ratios are in the eyfs statutory framework. They're described very simply as in my earlier post. No age mixing and no 'rising' anything.

There is also a bit where a qualified nursery teacher can have 13:1 3+ if a level 3 is also in the room, but i've never met a nursery that did that.

Jojay · 25/04/2016 23:22

I agree, the statutory EYFS guidance makes no exception for rising 3's, yet a colleague is adamant that a 1:8 ratio for rising 3's in a preschool setting is ok.

Thus is the only document I can find that appears to back up those claims...

Mixed age ratios
Jojay · 25/04/2016 23:24

'Rising 3's in a school nursery can be counted as 3 year olds as above '

Jojay · 25/04/2016 23:24

'Rising 3's in a school nursery can be counted as 3 year olds as above '

Whosthemummy16 · 25/04/2016 23:40

That's really surprised me! Sorry for giving wrong advice, ive been over ratio on so many occasions without knowing!
I wonder what will happen to my last nursery when Ofsted visit as they are sure it's 1:8 from 2 years 9 months Confused
I wish there was something in the guidelines regarding lone working in nurseries!

Original poster
pitterpatterrain · 26/04/2016 05:53

who to add to the confusion the manager from the OP also said something like that as insisted the 2 year old who turns 3 next month could be counted as a 3 year old (nursery setting not school nursery)

OP posts:
insancerre · 26/04/2016 06:26

There is no 1-5 ratio for mixed ages
They are making it up
The manager can be included in the ratio
The points system doesn't work

In the ops example, there needed to be 3 members of staff
The 5 under 2s need 2 members of staff
And I member of staff for the other 4 children
Technically, if there were 2 members of staff plus the manager then yes they were in ratio

It might have just been a one off if somebody was off sick but if you are concerned you can always report them to Ofsted

Jojay · 26/04/2016 07:13

Who - our setting counts rising 3's as a 1:8 ratio and got graded Outstanding last month. The plot thickens....Confused

Original poster
pitterpatterrain · 09/05/2016 20:53

Well. Had a meeting today with the nursery owner. After she shouted at us for a while for asking "inappropriate questions" and finally admitted she was planning using 1:5 ratios which are wrong, she has now kicked us out of the nursery. Confused

What a journey! So now we have to find another setting. Tbh probably makes sense to move as the trust was gone but bit of a strange escalation.

OP posts:
HSMMaCM · 09/05/2016 21:02

Good for you for raising it. If they are planning to go over ratio I would report them to Ofsted.