NOW CLOSED Metanium Everyday Barrier Ointment tester review thread

[KatieBMumsnet]

This thread is for the 200 Mumsnetters who are trying Metanium's Everyday Barrier Ointment with their DCs.

We've included some questions below to get you started but please feel free to add any other comments you may have.

Everyone who takes part and adds their feedback to this thread will receive a free Busy Baby Wall Planner (RRP £9.99) and will also be entered into a prize draw where one winner will receive a £100 Office voucher and another winner will receive a £100 Debenhams voucher.

Please note that your comments may be used (anonymously) by the makers of Metanium in marketing/advertising materials e.g. on their website/Facebook page and possibly elsewhere.

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Metanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

Thanks and good luck with the prize draw.

MNHQ

I didn't do the trial but EVERY time I see the name of this product, I think 'meconium' and not 'matanium'. I'm not sure if that would be off-putting or not, but for some reason, my brain can't separate the two words.
I suppose it's in the same area .

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

it was very easy to use and to figure out how much

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

after every change over the weekend

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

I don't think it was very effective as I stopped using it because he had a rash on Monday. Didn't feel any softer

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

I usually use Sudocrem every change. My main issue with the Matanium is it's a very small tube if it's suppose to be used at every change. I don't know how much it costs but I imagine it's more expensive than Sudocrem, which can also be used for rash

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

As said, larger tube would be better

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

Probably not just because I do think it will be very expensive.

I did like the way it smelled and felt but just can't imagine it would be worth whatever they are selling it for.

Marking place will be back when I have a few minutes.

Marking my place. I will start using the product tonight...

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

Very easy to rub in, and apply, I liked the texture of the ointment. So many are really oily and difficult to wash off hands.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

I have used it for most nappy changes, a lot of output from my 7 week old! Have used it in the nappy change before I go to bed and generally it has lasted through the few hours he goes then.

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

My baby still has gorgeous newborn soft skin, so no difference noted. No nappy rash though prior to use or during.

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?
Bepanthan and Sudocrem are my general use stuff. Both are oily and sudocrem is really thick too. The Metanium is thinner like the Bepanthen, but left a more obvious layer like the Sudocrem.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

I liked the packaging, colour is nice, however, it is just a standard box.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

I would recommend, easy to spread, need only a small amount and the non oilyness is great. I like that it is lanolin free too as some people are allergic to it.

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

It was easy to rub in and easy to work out how much to use

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

Used it after every nappy change for about 4 days

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

I think it was effective as he didn't get any rash on his bottom, where I put the cream, but did get a bit of nappy rash on his groin. His bottom felt really soft.

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

Used sudocrem when his bottom was sore but not every day. Was not as thick as sudocrem so easier to apply. It was definately more gentle on his skin than sudocrem.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

Packaging was a bit plain. Wouldn't catch my eye in the shop.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

I would recommend it as it worked but it would depend on price. I would imagine a tube would last about month so would need to be a reasonable price.

Here are my thoughts!

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

The ointment spread easily, so I liked that. However (and I'm prepared to be in the minority here!) I found it left almost too much of a barrier - maybe I used too much at each application, but I found that there was a lot left when I came to change the nappy again and it took a lot of wiping to clean it off my DS.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

At every nappy change over the weekend.

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

I think, because of the very thick barrier it created, it actually had something of an adverse effect on my son's skin - it stopped any air getting through. After several uses, his skin looked as if he'd had a plaster over it for days - that kind of pallid, sensitive look.

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

I've used Bepanthen as an everyday cream, and Metanium Rash cream and Sudocrem if there is a rash. As per my previous comments, I prefer the lighter type of cream (Bepanthen) for everyday - Metanium Everyday seemed too heavy for use on skin that wasn't rashy at all.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

A thicker tube would be better and a flip top cap too!! Also, the packaging was very plain and could do with more than two colours.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

Probably not, I just felt it was too heavy for an everyday cream. I would recommend the Metanium Rash cream for problems but I think more work needs to be done to make the 'Everyday' product just that - as I said before, I appreciate I might be in the minority here, but it really was a rather thick barrier!

Thanks for the opportunity to try and comment!

How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

Fine, I quite liked the texture

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

Just morning and night as my son is at nursery during the day (and I don't tend to use creams very often)

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

His lovely peachy bottom remains lovely and peachy

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

sudocrem / boots stuff / generic zinc and castor ointment

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

I know someone has already said this but I just think the name is really off putting. It really is too much like meconium. Still, I suppose that makes it memorable.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

I don't tend to have conversations about bottom cream as my friends have older children and my colleagues bottoms are their own business.

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

I found it really easy. Because its in a tube it was easy to get a tiny amount in a controlled way so avoiding any waste. My dh however is used to putting a big slick of sudocreme on and so went a bit overboard. The fact that it was quite 'dry' meant i used far far less than sudocreme.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

I used it after every nappy change.

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

I first used this after a four hour drive back from a weekend away and dd had had a soiled nappy on unknown to me. She was quite red and usually i'd have put a dab of metanium ointment on to ward off a rash. I held off and put the cream on. Her skin was fine by the next nappy change. I initially had concerns that the cream is quite dry/powderey like metanium ointment and assume its because of the titanium dioxide. I thought dd would get a rash because i assumed the dryness would irritate. I was wrong, after sleeping through the night the cream had left a clear barrier on her skin despite the worlds wettest nappy and her bottom was fine.

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

I used sudocreme religiously. I actually prefer the metanium cream. It left a clear barrier on the skin without being a big greasy slick. In fact the most noticeable thing was usually when i apply sudocreme i wipe the greasy excess off my fingers into the clean nappy. I didnt have to do it with this. Its drier, i used far less and it didnt leave a big glob collected in her lady bits like sudocreme. I would be interested in the price but i could see that as its drier and easily dispensed there would be good value from a tube.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?
The packaging was really nice. The soft colours made it appeal as 'gentle soothing etc as opposed to the grey and red of sudocreme which i always think looks a bit 'industrial'. One thing i would say is that having a metal tube is a pain. Whilst it makes it easy to squeeze every last bit of product out, i have found that over time with my ointment tube, it has a tendency to crack along the edges when its getting empty and so it leaks. If this is designed for everyday use i'd be reluctant to carry it in my changing bag incase it tears/leaks esp as both metanium products carry warning of staining.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not
Yes i would. It had the qualities of metanium ointment, which i swear by, without the smell, staining issues. I really liked it. I'd like to know the rrp as i would prefer this to sudocreme.

Used this over the weekend in place of my usual (sudocreme) Used it every other nappy change as I would my usual. Loved the way it went on and spread so easily, easily got used to how little was needed, I do think it made her skin softer.

Personally I prefer a tub to a tube purely as it's less faff when the baby is trying to roll away.

I can imagine the tube will last quite well so I would be interested to know how it compares in price to the Sudocreme.

I think In conversation I'd definitely suggest others try it for themselves.

Overall i think if the price was right I would use it again however I would definitely prefer a tub.

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

It was very easy to rub in and didn't soak away, which i was worried it would as it is quite thin. Worked out the amount to use by trial and error and did not feel that I wasted any

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

After every nappy change over the weekend

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

My DS has a very soft bum anyway, I am not sure that the cream did much - he developed quite nasty nappy rash last night following some ill-advised fresh orange and I used Bepanthen to treat it as I felt the Metanium made it worse!

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

I don't use barrier ointment, I much prefer regular fresh air getting to the bum!

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

The packaging is a bit dull and boring, I don't think it would necessarily catch my eye on a shelf

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

It would definitely depend on the price - I didn't really see any benefit from it myself on DS but if it was well-priced I might suggest it to those mums with DCs that suffer with regular nappy rash.

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?
I found it really easy to rub in and I used the same amount as I would normally and it worked just fine.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?
Almost every nappy change at home

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?
DS is not terribly rashy but sometimes gets a very red bottom if nappy not changed often enough. This seemed to ease and his bum is still lovely and soft!

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?
I would usually use bepanthen and it compares well. We have tried standard Metanium and didn't get on with it but this is much nicer.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?
Packaging was OK, the plain white made it feel a bit like a value range but a flip top cap would have been fantastic

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?
If it came up then yes I would but honestly I don't tend to have many conversations about nappy cream! I would recommend it tho.

Thanks for letting me take part in the trial, I would certainly purchase this cream again if it was priced reasonably.

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

It rubbed in easily and I didnt think you needed much of it at all. The pack directions said a pea sized amount which was probably about right - a small pea! washed off my hands quite easily too, which I liked.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

I used it after every nappy change from when I got it, but I don't think I'd continue to use it when I'm using our washable nappies as I think it left too much of a residue. I would use it overnight or on the days that my daughter goes to nursery and is in diposables though.

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

Didn't notice that her skin was any softer (she's a baby so her skin feels pretty soft anyway!), and she didn't have any nappy rash before or after using it.

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

I don't regularly use a barrier cream as we often use washable nappies and I don't feel they're necessary. If i use anything I usually use bepanthen, which I think is probably pretty simliar to this, although maybe slightly more sticky.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

My tube arrived flattened from the post, and I think it's only a matter of time until the metal of the tube breaks. Not sure why these creams are in the metal type tubes - my older daughter managed to bite through a tube of bepanthen recently (I have no idea why she had it in her mouth!).

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

Yes, probably, if it's ever something that came up, and if they used disposables.

How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

Very Easy. I just used a thin layer.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

Every nappy change (when I remembered)

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

well its hard to say. But there was one day that I missed the soiled nappy for a while and he didnt go as red as he would normally

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

I dont normally use barrier products - but I was looking at sending one to nursery as they dont always notice as quickly as I do that he's soiled his nappy (and he doesnt tell them!)
I do use Metanium to clear up nappy rash, and I was relieved that this ointment is not as yukky to use as that since its meant to be used frequently.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

A screwtop lid is v. annoying. chances are it would disappear quite soon for such a frequently used product. Tube is small for something meant to be used frequently - a toothpaste style flip lid would be better. I dont really like metal tubes. And the cardboard packaging has bypassed my radar - meaning I probably wouldnt notice it on a shelf. On the other hand, I use metanium because it was recommended, and not because I picked it out because it was more eyecatching (and certainly not because its pleasant to use - but it does what I need it to do)

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

Easy to use and spread. The cream felt light, smooth and dry, not oily like some others. I used too much the first time but quickly worked out how much was needed. The cream left a visible barrier which I associate more with a treatment cream than an everyday cream. I did find it slightly messy, eg if a bit ended up on a dark baby sock or a bit on my sleeve, it was highly visible.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?
Every change since receiving it (about 4 days)

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

No rash since using it, skin feels nice and soft. But didn't have any rash when starting test either.

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

Bepanthen for everyday, sudocrem for if a bit rashy. Metanium was easier to apply than bepanthen, particularly if skin is slightly damp from the wipe then bepanthen does not stick and spread. But metanium was messier. Less messy than sudocreme, but if child has nappy rash and is using a treatment cream then mess then is not a priority.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

Hate hate hate metal tubes. They always split after being used a while, usually in your changing bag and cause mess and wastage. The cap is also way too small. Irritating with a small baby when you drop it, concerns about it being a choking hazard with a slightly older child. Bepanthens cap is much better.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?
I'd say it's one to try, an acceptable product if you are looking for something less oily. But overall I prefer bepanthen due to less mess and slightly better packaging.

Other comment: I did find a fair bit of white residue remaining which had to be wiped off at each change. Almost granular, was chasing it around a bit with a wipe. So more effort to get it off so that baby was properly clean.

Marking place to post in a day or two

It was easy to use, doesn't completely rub in. Needed to use less than I used at first.

Used it at almost every nappy change.

I think it made the area very soft but didn't completely clear a rash that came up (minor).

I use brepanthan almost every time which is so expensive but I hate everything else on the market. It clears any rash especially if used over night.

I think the packaging is really nice and has plenty of info I wouldn't change it.

I personally wouldn't use this although I will try other products in the range but I would recommend it above the others I have tried as I don't like any of them.

Only bad point is it doesn't rub in like the brepanthan does and that is so much more effective.

How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

Very easy. I thought it had a much better consistency than most creams so I didn't need to use much to get good coverage.

How often and when did you use the ointment?

When I saw any redness on DD's bottom.

How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

More effective than others I've used, one treatment was enough to clear up the redness

Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

Sudocrem, I think this is better. It's a smoother consistency and rubbed in more evenly.

What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

A bit dull and medical looking. It's not distinctive and looks like prescription "heavy duty" cream rather than every day cream.

If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

Yes but the name is not very memorable or readily understandable so I can imagin I'd be saying "it's really good, it's called "meh"-something or "mu"-something and is in a purple and White box" rather than saying "have you tried metanium?" (which I just had to scroll to the top of the page to remember and get the spelling of).

Oh and MN have also spelt the name two different ways in the OP - not a good sign fo the name!

How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?
The ointment was really easy to use; a little goes a very long way and the fact that it is white and quite thick made it easy to see where it was applied and how much I needed to use on DS?s bottom. It went on easily, rubbed in pretty well and stayed put. I noticed my fingers felt softer after use!

How often and when did you use the ointment?
We used the ointment every day, at every nappy change.

How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?
DS has not had even a hint of nappy rash since we started to use Metanium Everyday. To be fair he has never suffered badly from it but that?s because I slap on the original Metanium at the first sign of any redness!

Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?
I occasionally used Sudocrem but I didn?t like the smell and consistency of it and it always seemed that it rubbed off on the nappy rather than staying on DS?s bottom. Whereas Metanium Everyday stayed on DS rather than his nappy, didn?t smell unpleasant and overall I much preferred it. I also occasionally used Bepanthen, but again it was rather oily and I prefer Metanium.

What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?
The outer carton was fine and I like the fact that it comes in a tube which is much more portable but I really dislike the metal tube. I don?t doubt we?ll have the same problem as we do with original Metanium ? when we roll the tube down as it gets empty it invariably gets a hole in it and ends up with sharp corners. Also, when DS gets hold of the tube he always manages to put another hole in it so that when I come to squeeze it to get the ointment out it springs various leaks and gets messy.
Metanium ? please use a plastic tube!

If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Metanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?
I would definitely recommend Metanium Everyday based on our experiences and we will definitely continue to use both Metanium products. I think both Metanium products are very good.

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

Very easy to use, easy to rub in, putting on what we think is a thin layer, as dictated by the box. It's a thinner layer than when we use sudocrem as it rubs in better but we think sudocrem is supposed to sit there rather than be rubbed in.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

After every nappy change during the day over the last 4 days (upstairs we use sudocrem for maybe 1 or 2 nappy changes)

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

Don't think it was very effective, gave her a 2 pimples and more of a rash than she had before, skin feels no different.

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

Sudocrem, not as good as sudocrem

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

Like the fact it's in a tube, might be better in a plastic one though, less sharp edges.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

I wouldn't recommend it but I would say others swear by it even though we don't

~How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?
Easy to use, needed less than I need of other creams, it was easy to work out how much I needed after initial over squeeze of the tube.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?
Every change for three days (still using it today), DS is prone to nappy rash.

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?
DS felt lovely and soft! He hasn't had any redness for 3 days, which is a good thing for him.

~Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?
Boots Own Brand Zinc & Castor Oil cream, compared to that it's nicer to use but I like the massive tub of Boots cream for home changes (will keep the Metanium in the changing bag).
Sudocrem, I hate the texture of Sudocrem so much prefer this.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?
Don't like the box (wouldn't notice it on the shelf) or the screw cap (would prefer a flip-top) but I like that it's a tube.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Matanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?
Yes, but as other people have mentioned..it wouldn't be by name (I've got no idea how to pronounce it).
I would buy this product.

~The cream is soft and easy to apply. The instructions on the packaging say to use a pea sized amount which I found adequate.

~I used the cream after every nappy change, every 3hours (depending if baby was wet/soiled or not.

~I think the cream was good at keeping nappy rash at bay but did leave some residue (of cream) on baby's skin. I'm not sure I noticed baby's skin was softer.

~I normally use Sudocream and Bepantham. I prefer this cream to Bepanthem because it isn't tough and hard to clean off but is soft like Sudocream.

~I really like the packaging. The colours are soft, pretty and the little heart makes a nice touch telling me it is kind to skin.

~I would recommend it over Bepantham as it is much softer and easier to apply/clean off and works well.

~ How easy or difficult did you find the ointment to use? Was it easy to rub in or not? Was it easy to work out how much you should use or not?

It was okay, I found getting a tube open with one hand quite challenging though. I normally use sudocrem and you can open, apply and close one handed while stopping your child legging it.

~ How often and when did you use the ointment?

Every nappy change for five days. FWIW DS got chickenpox during this period and I expected him to get a rash in his nappy but he didn't.

~ How effective (or not) do you think the ointment was at preventing nappy rash? Did your DC's skin feel any softer after using the ointment or not?

It felt softer, he did not get any nappy rash, but he rarely does anyway.

~ Which, if any, barrier product did you use before? How did Metanium Everyday ointment compare to this?

Sudocrem, I prefer the smell and packaging of sudocrem.

~ What did you think about the packaging? Do you think it could be improved in any way?

Put it in a toothpaste pump type container.

~ If it came up in conversation, would you recommend Metanium Everyday to other parents? If so why, if not why not?

I can't think anyone would ask me an opinion on it but I still prefer Sudocrem sorry.

Oh and thought I should add... The name is not easy to pronounce which makes recommending the product verbally a bit of a bear bug for me. I think the spelling is also a little tricky.