Will PR be granted? Please give advice.

[Olafsmum]

Hi previously in court once (directions hearing I think its called). ex wants contact of our 8 month old DC and to be on the birth certificate.
He has seen DC a handful of times, doesn't pay maintenance, I haven't claimed it, and I don't want it but he has brought gifts numerous times and posted some odds and ends.
I am not allowing contact unless it is at contact centre. I would like reports of him bonding with dc and I don't understand why he is interested. (He is engaged, she has a child I believe they are trying for one of their own)
In court last time we agreed contact centre and that I add him to the birth certificate. I haven't added him. And he hasn't had any contact at all as he couldn't afford the transport or contact centre costs (would cost him £90 a session - low income I believe.)
He has been in contact a lot indirectly, sent gifts asks for photos daily. But I still do not want any less than contact centre. I don't want to be around him, feels like he flaunts his happy life infront of me and I cant be doing with it while struggling to keep my own relationship together tbh.

So what is likely to happen now in court please? I am self representing and very nervous. Is it likely he is to be granted contact outside of a contact centre? He hasn't done anything towards me or dc... and is being nice. Will I be forced to add him to the birth certificate now?
Cafcass checks have come back clear for both sides - if that helps?

Regardless of what the judge orders i feel very sorry for this child. The stress he is going to be subjected to over the rest of his childhood because of your ridiculous toddler tantrum because things didnt go how you hoped will affect him forever. This child is entitled to a normal relationship with his dad and you, for purely selfish reasons, are deliberately fucking that up for him. This affects him for life! I'm getting angry now so will have to hide this tread but i sincerely hope for this baby's sake that you have a light bulb moment and wise the hell up before you do any damage. You dont get a second chance at this stuff and you cant undo it once it's done.

I meant ex can ask me the questions at court - supervised environment. Not the Judge.

why does he need to be supervised to send an email asking how his son is?

Why can't you email him? Court is not for updates on children....

infact I would say why can't he just see his son but I am wasting my time....why did you write this thread? Did you think everyone would just agree with you? I am yet to see anything any single person has made the slightest impact...

You carry on your merry way as you will anyway....I hope you have your answers when he asks you when he was older why he didn't see his Dad when he was a baby

The Judge is there to make a decision as to how your son should develop a relationship with his father and how this should be facilitated through regular contact. The judge's only concern will be what is in your son's best interests ( which is clearly a close loving relationship with his father). The judge's function is not to oversee a power trip for you by making your ex ask you questions about your son in a court environment. Aside from anything else, I doubt that the judge will have either the time or the inclination to listen to you harp on about your own agenda which seems to be making your ex's life as difficult as possible and potentially ruining your son's opportunity of a relationship with his dad.

You really need to sit back and think how your son will feel about this when he is older.

Because I do not want to speak to my ex. Why should I? Yes our son will see him, have him in his life eventually, like you all tell me - but I don't want that for myself. I want nothing to do with him.
Him and his girlfriend are difficult, I don't want to have to speak to them, have their happy life pushed in my face, I don't want her or her child around DS or any children they breed between them. If I wanted to be around him, I wouldn't have broken it off with him.

I appreciate that my son should have contact with his Dad, and that I am getting my head around, but I will wait until court and wait for the judges decision, rather than me offer the contact. I would like to hear the judges suggestions.

I wrote this tread hoping I would get some advice on the likelihood of ex being granted PR and hoping someone would explain to me how it is granted.

I wanted someones advice on contact. Will it be ordered to be in a contact centre? But everyone seems to think not?

From where I was before, I do believe I am abit more understanding of it, and I am taking in what you are all saying, even if I don't agree and dislike being insulted.

Fine

father: I want PR and contact because he is my son and he deserves to know who I am. There are no valid reasons why I shouldn't have contact.

You: I don't want you to have any of it it because I don't like you. I don't like your girlfriend and I don't want you in my like ITS ALL ABOUT ME ME ME WHAT I WANT AND HOW I FEEL

Judge: I grant the father PR and contact outside a contact centre because it's in the child's best interest to know both it's parents. And the father has no valid reason to be in a centre.

HTH

Really? No contact centre - even if in 8 months of his life DS has only seen his Father FIVE times, and not at all, in nearly 5 months!!
No wonder this Country is like it is..

Oh OP the answers to all your questions are here
Yes the father will be given parental rights
No, he will not be made to use a contact centre
Your failure to follow through on previous agreements will be held against you and if you continue along those lines you run the risk of the father eventually being granted residency.
And all this is in your child's best interests

Except of course that any future children your ex has will be siblings to your ds and the general view is that it is in a child's interest to have a relationship with siblings and indeed the extended family including step-siblings unless there is a very good reason.

Appreciate that you are finding the situation difficult OP but you deal with things sensibly now to make life so much easier for your ds, yourself and your ex in the future. After all you are going to have to some form of relationship with your ex for at least the next 16 years or so and it may as we'll be an amicable one for the sake of all concerned.

Rarely have I seen a thread on mn where there is such a consensus reached in terms of advice. That speaks volumes!

No!!!! Contact centres are used for children who the parent seeking contact has been;

Violent
Abusive
Alcoholic
Addicts

Your DS's father is KIND, loving, non abusive, not a addict, not violent, not an alcoholic, he's yearning for a relationship.

YOU are obstructive, ignorant, rude, fail to follow court orders, you put YOUR own needs and feelings before your own.

I hate to break it to you but as soon as you became pregnant it wasn't about you! Your child will want a happy loving family involving his dad and he will blame you for not having that! No doubt you'll be that mother who slags his father off to him!

You need to seriously think about the consequences of your actions how would you feel if the judge removes your son for your care because of your actions?! Is it worth it?

Aargh typos, but you get my drift!

Like many people here believe, you are one selfish selfish woman. You can't understand that he has only seen him 5 times because you wont let him! What gives you that right?
I really really hope that YOU lose residency and the judge sees through your self centred self pitying ways.
As someone said upthread its women like you who give single mums a bad name. Seriously, take advice from this thread, and start agreeing fair and proper access- which does NOT involve supervised access in a contact centre!

I'm a lawyer.

You've said above that you would only allow contact in a specific contact centre, which he's said he couldn't afford. There isn't another close enough, which is why he's been unable to see his child. You've been deliberately obtrusive and have done all that you can to stop him from seeing your child, and yet you can't see the bigger picture.

Court isn't so that he can ask you questions about his child. You're wasting the court's time and if you think they will be happy about this you're deluded.

I don't think you've come here for advice. You're clearly not taking on board anything that anyone is saying. There's hundreds of posts on here telling you that you're doing the wrong thing, none are backing you up. This thread is all about you, not about your child. That should tell you something but it's not going in. I'm bowing out, my life's too short.

I wish your child the best of luck.

Apart from pointing out that it is parental responsibility, not parental rights, I agree with the advice you have been given repeatedly on this thread.

The courts will give him PR.

They will order unsupervised contact.

It is very unlikely they will agree to your wish for a contact centre especially given that your justification is based on the fact that you have been refusing contact and that it seems your real motive is to make contact unaffordable.

They will not order mediation. You refused it initially and only want it now as another way of obstructing contact. It is clear from your attitude that any attempt at mediation will be pointless.

They will expect you to communicate properly with your son's father about matters concerning his son. They will not compel you to do so but failure to do so will count against you if the father needs to return to court for any reason. They will certainly not be happy if you put unreasonable obstacles in the way of communication such as insisting that you will only answer his questions in court.

They will not be happy with your clear attempts to obstruct contact.

If you continue down this path there is a possibility, admittedly remote, that the court will order that your son should live with his father. That won't happen immediately but it could happen eventually.

No wonder this Country is like it is..

Really? You think the courts should lean over backwards to help you prevent your son from knowing his father? There may be many things wrong with this country but this is not one of them.

Calmed down and unhid this thread.

Just a point OP- the judge will insist you and exp swap phone numbers. It will be part of the order. It can be included that numbers are only to be used to arrange contact and discuss your son but you will have to give him your contact number (i've been through this remember).

Can you try to see it from his POV at all?

My BIL is in a similar situation to your ex.
His ex partner left him when their DS was only a few months old.
She had refused to put him on the birth cert although they lived together and there was no doubt he was the father.
She moved a long way away and refused to tell him where she had gone and denied him any access or info about his son.
Despite this she did continue to claim child support via the CSA which he regularly paid in full.

He really, really missed his baby even though he had only known him a short time.
He took the case to court and after almost 2 years of fighting he was finally granted contact again.
I really admire his persistence as she threw everything at him. He had to get a court order to even find out where his son was living, another order to get PR (granted very easily as even she did not dispute he was the father) and a further order for contact.
She made false accusations of drug use and violence against him (in actual fact she is the one with a caution for violence) which were completely untrue. He had to do drug tests, get a psych report and testimonials from his family and employers, get a CAFCASS report, go to parenting classes and all this he did.
She failed to turn up to court on a number of occasions and has just been obstructive at every turn.

It has all been worth it though now that he is seeing his son again. He is so thrilled, so proud to show us all photos, we can't wait to meet him and introduce him to his cousins.
BIL does have a new relationship and maybe he will have more children with his new partner but that does not diminish his love for his son at all.
He has done nothing wrong. He deserves to see his son and his son deserves to have his father in his life and to know our side of the family.

Please, please try to put yourself in the father's shoes.
A mother does not have the monopoly on caring about her child. To know that you have a child who is growing up without you is painful.

So from our experience;
Yes, he will easily get PR and doesn't need your permission to alter the cert
Yes, he will get unsupervised contact even though he has not currently got a relationship.
BIL did agree to a few weekly sessions in a contact centre but it quickly moved on to longer periods unsupervised and he is due back in court soon and expects that overnight and then every other weekend will be granted.

any children they breed between them

I think that is the most disgusting thing I've read on Mumsnet. You realise you are talking about your Ds's possible half sibling?

I wish we could send this email to the court - doubtless you'll put on a big tearful display about your 'fears' and you may even get your own way and get supervised contact. But in the long run, such spiteful pettiness will come back to bite you.

I have never until now read and contributed to a thread hoping it's a troll. That scenario is preferable over some poor innocent child being subjected to such a completely and utterly clueless and selfish parent.

Another point - if you bring up that ex has only seen DS 5 times, the judge will ask why and WILL be pissed off with you for using that as a reason when YOU were the one obstructing contact.

My partners ex wife tried that one. They were seriously unimpressed.

All the reasons you state for not wanting your ds to see his dad...they're ridiculous!

I think he has done amazingly well to get past you to see him 5 times tbh.
Then no physical contact for a while, any chance this coincided with you finding out he had a new gf?

Court is not your personal platform where you 'allow' questions to be asked about your son.

The judge is going to rip you a new one.

Olafsmum

Some advice from someone in your DS's father's shoes.

My wife walked out on me when our DS was only 4 months old because she simply decided she had made a mistake and went to go and live with her parents in the SW of england (I am in London) who then chose to turn her against me.

There was no occurrence or accusation of DV or any type of welfare concern; her and her parents simply decided I couldn't or shouldn't see my DS.

What the occurred was 3 months when I was only permitted to see my son, who I adore, for only 6 hours. (he is now 20 months)

I would email regularly requesting updates on him and received nothing.

I sent little cards to him and presents when I'd been away for work; these all got returned; so I made a keepsake box for him to show him that I was always thinking of him.

I kept asking for more contact and was told 'no - you'll only get contact as and when we decide'

Through all of this, I towed the party line, I wanted my wife back despite her behaving in such a grotesque way and only thinking of herself. I knew the best situation was for our DS to have both parents in his life, together. As time went by, it became clearer through emotional and financial abuse on her part - refusing to let me see our DS unless I rented her a cottage to live in or bought her a car (I pay far more in CSA monies than required and pay her spousal maintence as she can't find a job despite her having a large amount of capital) - that she simply didn't want anything.

I met with my solicitor, explained my side of things, showed them the email and we started the divorce proceedings; we also started the contact proceedings - let me tell you what happened - and this was ordered when he was 8 months old: -

1: She was made to let me have contact every other weekend.

2: I get 8 weeks of holidays a year in a maximum of two week chunks.

3: She has to drive him to London for every contact period and has to pick him up at the end of it

4: She has to FaceTime him with me twice during each week (I have to do the same when we are on holiday).

5: She has to (as I have PR) keep me informed of all medical appointments - she had been deciding medical care without consulting me - and his GP also has to inform me when DS has seen him.

6: She had to pay ALL the costs of the court. Not just her solicitor and barrister's fees but mine also; the court saw her as someone who was obstructive, deceitful, cruel and acting no way in our DS's best interest and he made an award to costs as he saw her wasting his time and the courts time and imposing untold damage on our DS in not allowing proper contact. My legals cost me 14k - her's will have been about the same so it cost her, ballpark, 30k to have to give me exactly what I had been asking.

My advice to you is this: -

1: Do not go to court - if you can't stand your ex now you will hate him even more when you lose - and you will lose.
2: Go to arbitration (not mediation as it is not binding).
3: Give him PR.
4: Put his name on the birth certificate.
5:Agree that he should have contact (out of a contact centre as that is just not justified), this contact should be little and often (not every other week but every week building up.
6:Overnight contact should occur very quickly
7: After about 5-6 months he should be able to take DS away on holiday.
8: Start thinking of your son, not about you. This will sound harsh - no matter how much you hate your ex if you love your son you will want him to have a relationship with his father. Research shows that children who have access to two parents when they are growing up (whether together or not) have a better and more balanced upbringing and a brighter start to their life. Do it for your son.

The reason I give the above is it is exactly what a court will make you do and if you then break that order, you face a fine, community service or, for repeat offences, prison - in which case you will not be seeing your son.

Great Post boris although I think everyone who has put the time in this thread has completely wasted their breath tbh.

OP, as others have said I am sure you have posted before and were told very clearly that you were being obstructive and unfair and were not putting you child's needs first.

Now you have started another thread and are getting the same advice. Please heed it, for your son's sake.

Olafsmum Tue 29-Apr-14 22:20:57 - Really? No contact centre - even if in 8 months of his life DS has only seen his Father FIVE times, and not at all, in nearly 5 months!! But that is your fault not his, you will not allow him to see his son.

No wonder this Country is like it is.. It like it is because of people like you who think they can ignore thw laws of the land because it doesn't suit them.