Will PR be granted? Please give advice.

[Olafsmum]

Hi previously in court once (directions hearing I think its called). ex wants contact of our 8 month old DC and to be on the birth certificate.
He has seen DC a handful of times, doesn't pay maintenance, I haven't claimed it, and I don't want it but he has brought gifts numerous times and posted some odds and ends.
I am not allowing contact unless it is at contact centre. I would like reports of him bonding with dc and I don't understand why he is interested. (He is engaged, she has a child I believe they are trying for one of their own)
In court last time we agreed contact centre and that I add him to the birth certificate. I haven't added him. And he hasn't had any contact at all as he couldn't afford the transport or contact centre costs (would cost him £90 a session - low income I believe.)
He has been in contact a lot indirectly, sent gifts asks for photos daily. But I still do not want any less than contact centre. I don't want to be around him, feels like he flaunts his happy life infront of me and I cant be doing with it while struggling to keep my own relationship together tbh.

So what is likely to happen now in court please? I am self representing and very nervous. Is it likely he is to be granted contact outside of a contact centre? He hasn't done anything towards me or dc... and is being nice. Will I be forced to add him to the birth certificate now?
Cafcass checks have come back clear for both sides - if that helps?

rinabean Are You another 'Sister' ?

It's not about "his precious beloved child". It's about the child's right to a relationship with its father, a relationship the OP is attempting to block for no good reason. The child deserves a relationship with both parents.

No Rina is not me... and I don't fully agree with her. Father has had some contact, so I don't see it as sperm donor.

It's not in any way shape or form his precious beloved child, it's his sperm and that's it. How on earth can you argue otherwise.

Are you a bit thick??

I would imagine he is interested because it is his child, regardless of whether his new partner has a child or he is trying for one.

FWIW, the children we have are from 3 different fathers with same mum, the father of the older 2 was awarded PR at Court, the birth certificates have not been changed and there was no suggestion that they should be by the Court.

When we first had the children the youngest was on supervised contact with her father and I did not want him in my house. I used to meet him in the park and would sit on a bench whilst he played with his daughter. We are now coming into summer and this would not be unreasonable, you would not have to spend time with him but would be able to see your child whilst he gets to know him. There are also numerous play centres now where you could sit and have a coffee with a book whilst he got to know his child.

I cannot see a Court making him use a contact centre, there is no history that would make that necessary. What he needs is the opportunity to spend time with his child, supervised from a distance until all is comfortable and then progressing to quality time days/weekends etc. He is not going to go away and you do not have a right to keep him away from his child. You will be seen as obstructive by the Court and that just may go against you.

That's a very harsh thing to say SteadyEddie and exactly what I was thinking

You may not see him as a sperm donor, but you certainly don't see him as your child's father! Poor bloke. Give him a break.

You sound a lot like my DH's ex was. When we got together he told me pretty much straight away that his ex was pregnant. I had a choice then of whether to carry on with the relationship or walk away without getting involved. What made me stay was the attitude my DH showed to his unborn child. Everyone told him to walk away and leave her to it, which was obviously what she wanted...she had a new partner and had split from my DH as soon as she knew she was pregnant. She was quite young and I think just liked the idea of having a baby, and at that point DH was surplus to requirements.

DH on the other hand had grown up without a father himself as he died when he was 3. He didn't want his child growing up without knowing his father, so he went to court. (Not straight away, there were a few shenanigans before it got to that point). DSS was about 8 months at the time I think. Mediation was suggested, which DH booked and paid for, but his ex didn't turn up, so back to court. He was granted supervised contact initially, in our home (we were living together by the time it got to court). I had to vacate the house twice a week (one weekday evening and at the weekend) so he could see his son with his ex in our house, as she didn't want her son "anywhere near me until he went to school." Then I was allowed to come back and hear all about it from DH, as obviously he was really excited.

Contact was then increased to a longer time at the weekends, still supervised but at her parents house. Eventually it was increased to four hours every weekend unsupervised. It would have been more I believe, however DSS was diagnosed as autistic and would have found overnight visits outside of his home very stressful. I can't remember the time frame for the increases in contact as it was all a long time ago now! The courts also granted parental responsibility and DH had his name added to the birth certificate...mainly as he wanted DSS to be able to find out who he was if for some reason the contact all fell apart. Yes, he has the ability with the PR to be able to be involved in decisions about education, etc but he has never thrown his weight about unless he genuinely felt very strongly about something, for example when his ex wanted to change DSS's surname.

Things calmed down a lot after a while, once his ex realised we weren't the enemy and DH only wanted what was best for DSS. Whilst we're not best friends, we are friendly enough to each other and can have a chat if we see each other out and about. We had DSS most weekends until this last year, when he decided he no longer wanted to come every weekend as we're boring (he is now sixteen and would rather stay at home and be with his mates etc). Fair enough, that's teenagers for you, he knows where we are and will sometimes give us a call and arrange for his dad to go and pick him up, and they keep in touch on Facebook. DH's ex is a great mum and whilst we wouldn't agree on parenting styles a lot of the time she and her husband have done a great job raising DSS and their other kids. That doesn't mean that DH hasn't had an important part to play as well. It's just a different relationship. And it's meant that DSS has been able to have relationships with our two boys as well as with mine and DH's extended families.

I apologise for the long post, but just wanted to let you know that if you just allow the contact to happen and stop fighting it things might just turn out okay and it probably won't be anywhere near as frightening as you think it will be. I know it's scary having to think about handing your small baby over to someone you perceive to be a stranger, but at the end of the day your ex is one more person who loves your DS as much as you do...and surely that can only ever be a good thing?

I remember when DS was 8 months old I found it very hard to be parted from him... DH started taking him out for the day at about 9 months as I started working from home one day a week, and even though I trusted DH to look after him it was still very hard to begin with. I can imagine how anxiety provoking it must be when you don't know or trust the father. However, he is the father and it doesn't sound as if there is any evidence he won't be safe with your DS, so building up the trust by letting him gradually increase contact is probably the only way to go. For what its worth, 3 years on I grab any opportunity to have a bit of time to myself and so love it when DS is off having adventures without me (and he loves it too!)

I think as others have said you have to accept that he wants to be a part of your sons life. And long term that's a good thing. You can't pretend your ex doesn't exist. You have to be adult about it and let him learn to be a parent the same way you have. No one gave you instructions!

I split from dds dad when she was about 4 months old. He was a unless dad in the beginning and spent most of her first months down the pub. He wanted contact so I had to let him and for a while he had her every Friday for a few hours. I moved 231 miles away because he didn't seem bothered and suddenly he wanted to be dad of the year. He started having her every other weekend from Friday to Sunday. We did a lot of travelling. But dd did love her dad and I could see it was important to her.

11 years on and her dad now lives in the USA and she goes to see him half of every holiday - so this summer of her 6 week holiday she will be there for 3 weeks. And Christmas as it's his turn this year. We take turns birthdays and Christmases.

You have to just get on with it and put your own feelings aside. He's not abusive. He just wants contact with his son.

Meant to add having been through this with my ex they will absolutely give pr without a second thought.

Wow! Just wow!

I cannot believe that this man is doing everything he can to be a father to your DS, but you are STILL preventing it from happening.

What he has asked for is in NO WAY unreasonable. For him to build up to 1x midweek plus 1x every other weekend is absolutely reasonable.

I'm truly shocked that you have acted the way you have, and can't understand how you can't see that instead of 'protecting' your son you are actually damaging him by alienating his father.

None of us knew how to care for kids before they arrived, and they were strangers when they got here. We all - mothers and fathers - coped with it. A couple of supervised sessions to ensure he is bonding is fine, and I'm surprised you have rejected this idea.

I'm surprised you have made this so difficult - and at £90 per session for him to attend a contact centre I'm not surprised he hasn't been able to go.

Your first post, OP, seems to make it all about you..... the fact that you don't know him very well, you don't want to be around him, you don't like him 'flaunting' his happy relationship. Well guess what? It's not about you.

God I feel for your son. I really do.

From what you have admitted here, you have a father who really wants to be there for his son. Who attempts to provide for him, sends gifts, emails every day, and has made the best attempt to visit him despite your efforts to obstruct, and is now fighting in the courts to be able to do so.

He WILL get PR. And the court WILL order unsupervised access - probably in the same vein as he has set out as it seems eminently sensible.

Shame on you for not putting your son first.

By the sounds of things your babies Dad will get parental responsibility, unsupervised visitation which will increase in time over a certain time period (if not immediately it would still be very quickly going off the information you have given), if requested, Skype sessions/phone contact when your child is with you when he is a little older, overnight visitation (set up will vary from person to person but EOW or EOW with one day during the week seems to be the most common but could well be more), split holidays, possibly alternate birthdays/Christmas/Easter etc etc. You will also have zero say on who is around your son whilst he is in his Dad's care for example his girlfriend and kids.

When people say you are in for a shock when this goes to court they are not lying.

You're attitude is terrible to put it nicely. Your Son isn't your possession and he has every right to know his Father and spend time with him.

Oh dear, we obviously aren't saying what she wanted to hear.

I think the root of it all might be this;

Because I don't want to be around him and we have no one between us to monitor his contact or his contact with his family (her and her child).

My bold. A bit of old-fashioned jealousy of the new woman.

And the moral of the story is; if you don't want to risk your child's welfare handing him over to strangers, don't have sex with any. HTH.

OP I know it must be very hard to hand over your baby to someone who you don't know very well.

But your child is one of the lucky ones. He has a dad who wants to be involved and is trying to do so reasonably, with a coherent plan for building up contact, despite the problems you have put in his way. He sounds like a sensible guy and just because you don't know him, doesn't mean he's not a really nice guy. He might be a massive asset to your son's life.

As nomoretether says, the court doesn't care a jot about your needs or your child's father's needs. They only care about what is best for your child. In the absence of any problems, such as violence, it would be best for your child to have a relationship with his father. You both made your baby and you both need to parent him. As hard as it may be for both of the adults, this will need to happen until he is at least 18. Perhaps you should both try a Separated Parents Information Programme? It would help you understand what it looks like from your child,s point of view.

Ok thanks all

Yes Peezy I have attended that programme we were told that we had to do it in court last time.

I will try to get my head around it... he has been in touch again today requesting information on our son, guess I am jst going to have to deal with it, and hope the courts see its best not to be rushed and that.

there you go again.

Just when we think we are getting through you come out with "best not to be rushed"

Best for your child is precisely to rush it, to let him get to know his dad now and start building a bond early.

The longer you leave it the harder it will be for your baby and the more you risk damaging him. YOU will damage your child by delaying this, not his father.

You have to put your own feelings aside. I know it's hard, but you have to put the little one first.

In the Ops defense I think the last comment was not rushing into overnight or anything like that. Obviously contact is of the upmost importance in this case but for the sake of the child it should be built up gradually.

I may be wrong and your interpretation correct and if that's the case your post is spot on.

I can understand Op's worry about things going too fast and i think thats what she means about not being rushed. However this man's proposal for contact is not too much too soon. It really isnt. And lets remember that it will or should e reviewed by the judge or very least your solicitors meeting with you to see how the contact has been going before progressing on to each next stage. If your son seems upset with his dad after the first few sessions then you can say he needs more time to get to know him before unsupervised contact. (I've been through this bTW) i also agree that contact needs to begin sooner rather than later. Delaying the start of it is prolonging the process.

Thanks again everyone for your insights and personal experiences.
I don't doubt that I am in for a shock now, but I will hold out hope that it is minimal contact to begin with.

I have told my sons father that what he has proposed isn't what I want and think is best for ds and that it does need to be in a contact centre for a few months, and I think one session a fortnight is enough, and that in the long term every other week for the day is enough too. I think the Judge will see I am trying to be generous, but that I have my concerns - because although he is the father he is a stranger to both ds and I. I am not happy with it, and I understand you all think he isn't as they share DNA, but I do not wish to hand ds over to him willy nilly to anybody.

You're head is in the clouds. Minimal contact is not in your childs best interest, appropriate contact is.

A judge will see that and will most likely go against your wishes because you are being unreasonable and controlling.

He may be a stranger to you but you had unprotected sex with that stranger and then obviously made the decision to progress with the pregnancy that resulted from sex with a stranger. This man is no more a stranger to you than you are to him and he isn't "anybody" he is the childs Dad whether you like it or not.

It seems fairly obvious you aren't willing to accept that what you want you will not get but don't be surprised when a judge ignores your irrational proposal.

HTH.

Well, I can only add a story of a case I read about a few years ago (not reported but dealt with by a former colleague)

Mum and Dad had a brief fling. Mum didn't want Dad to have any contact with child. Came up with all sorts of nefarious reasons, including lack of experience, the fact that he hadn't paid his gas bill on time, that he was overweight, you name it.

The dad was desperate to have a relationship with his son and to bring him up knowing his paternal family including step sister, step mum (eventually), grandparents, aunts, cousins etc. Mum came up with stories such as the aunt being a lesbian as reasons to stop the little boy having contact with his dad and family

Cue 3 years, yes, 3 years of litigation from when the child was 6 months old and the mum refused to allow little and often contact, to when the child was 3.5 and the court ordered a change of residence.

This means that the child was taken from the mother and now lives with the father and his new partner and their child full time.

The reason for this was that the mum totally refused to comply with court orders, including one to change the birth certificate. She refused to have a psych evaluation even though ordered by the court. She usually refused to take the child to the contact centre and when she did, she had scared him so much he refused to get out of the car.

The dad went through all of the hoops requested of him including parenting classes, psych evaluation, you name it, he did everything the court asked of him.

The mother completely screwed up her child emotionally, by trying to frighten him about his dad with absolutely no reason other than that she hated the dad and just wanted him to go away.

So now she's the one who sees her son every other weekend and one evening per week plus half the holidays.

Tread very carefully OP. Change of residence is very rarely used but if you don't change your attitude yours may just turn into one of those cases.

The judge will not see you as being generous. He will want a proper explanation for why you think a contact centre is suitable and you haven't given one yet. One day a week/fortnight is not suitable contact for the information you have been given.

The only way you will get a result that is vaguely bearable for you is to end up with a very weak judge. If your ex lives nearby and can be flexible with work, I dare say he could successfully argue for a shared care arrangement.