Anyone facing EC 3 or more without success so far?

[KatRee]

Hi all- hope everyone is managing to get some rest and respite at what can be a difficult time of year
When I started my first ivf round in August this year, I knew I might need to go through the process several times to get success, or to reach a point where we felt we had given it our all and needed to move on
That first round ended in BFN and a day 6 4BC still on ice. I decided I wanted to press ahead with another fresh cycle as concerned about declining egg reserves and quality. The resulted in one embryo, which again failed to implant.
I'm now looking at fresh cycle number 3 - it willl be number 2 or a 3 cycle package, so have a 4th lined up too.
I feel like I'm in a minority as I don't see many people on these boards who have done more than 2 fresh cycles. It would be nice to chat to others in the same position if you are out there. Would also love to hear from anyone who did multiple fresh cycles and eventually had success after previous failed transfers

I've done 3 fresh cycles and 3 transfers BFN for all of them. Nothing to freeze in any cycle. I agree most people online seem to get success after a max of 2 cycles! I feel so hopeless and the clinic can't work out why it keeps failing and why our embryo quality is so poor :( I don't even know if it's worth trying again at this stage but I know there are people who do need more than 3 cycles I just can't seem to find any!
Good luck for your next cycle xx

@Roo45 Thank so much for replying to me. I'm so sorry you have been through 3 failed cycles. I know how hard it is. It's a shit boat to be in and sorry you are here, but it's nice to know I am not alone
I try to tell myself with each failed cycle that it's not in vain as they will have learned something from each one, but so much seems to come down to luck and there is so much they don't know as well.
Some days I feel like it's just a numbers game and with time and patience I have a good chance. I know in the US it seems to be quite common practice for clinics to recommend people do several cycles from the off and bank the embryos in recognition of the fact it often takes a few goes, but that doesn't often seem to be the way here
Other days I feel completely hopeless- I'm convinced my eggs are all too old and abnormal and there is nothing I can do about it, and that even if I could get I good embryo I will find something as yet undiscovered wrong with my uterus that will prevent implantation
Today I'm feeling like with unlimited financial and emotional resources I would have a very good chance of getting there there in the end, but not sure how far my financial and emotional resources will last
Have you had any tests done in addition to the standard ones that would have done before cycle one?

I spent 3 years doing IVF. My first round was March 2019. I did 5 rounds of egg collection - and a 6th that got cancelled the day of trigger due to poor response.

1st round: 1 morula, BFN
2nd round: no embryos
3rd round: 2 embryos, 1 transfer 5AA BFN, 1 day 6 4AA still frozen
4th round: 3 embryos, PGS testing. 1 abnormal discarded, 1 no DNA detected, 1 inconclusive - both still frozen but not hopeful about quality. Didn’t want to transfer any.
5th round: cancelled day of trigger due to poor response
6th round: 1 3BB embryo. Currently 10 and 1/2 weeks pregnant.

We initially did IVF for male factor. But I respond terribly to the meds so we really struggled to make embryos.

Things we did in case any of it helps:

1. Male Factor: did a DNA frag after 1st round, was 52%. Saw a urologist, found a hidden varicoele and had it embolized - frag dropped to 25%. DH gave up baths, excessive sport, all alcohol (never smoked or did drugs anyway) and sugar, went on a low carb, high protein and multiple veg diet, no processed foods. Took high dose Ubiquinol, Proceive Max, Biocare Vitamin C 500 x2, Mor DHA x2, Uno Cardio high dose fish oil & vitamin D religiously. We did IMSI too.

1. Female issues:

-had my testosterone checked after rounds one and two and it was v low. Went on DHEA and we started making embryos after that.

Before this transfer:

• got my progesterone checked (despite clinic telling me I didn’t need to) after normal amount of pessaries it was 4 and should be >50. Went on progesterone in oil injections with monitoring of progesterone during 2WW for this transfer.

• did the ERA/EMMA/ALICE. ERA showed my receptive window was Day 6 not Day 5.
• EMMA/ALICE showed 0% good bacteria, high bad bacteria. Probiotic pessaries and antibiotics helped it back toward normal range.
• NKC blood tests showed slightly raised immunes so I was put on low dose steroids for transfer.

For Stims and in month preceding each round of IVF I had a high protein low carb high veg diet. With no snacking in between meals and intermittent fasting from 7pm-10am. Also on similar vitamins to DH.

I tried the whole boat of reflexology/acupuncture/hypnotherapy/ counselling/ fertility massage etc throughout all my IVF so I don’t think any of that makes a difference.

If you have male issues btw and urologist doesn’t find anything I would recommend micro TESE. It’s not any more invasive for the men than an egg collection.

Also as a poor responder I was on 450 of meds but for rounds 3-5 I was also put on letrozole for the first 5 days.

I also was in 3 different clinics as whenever I got unhappy with the treatment I moved.

I also did thrombophelia bloods in case I needed blood thinners but that came back fine.

It took me multiple rounds too

Round 1 - short protocol - freeze all due to OHSS - 2 average blastocysts.
FET 1 - BFN
FET 2 - ruptured ectopic

Round 2 - short protocol- freeze all for PGS testing. 2 average blastocysts- neither came back normal. Was allowed to transfer one low level mosaic - BFN

Round 3-5 - 3 cycle package natural modified with transfer after last collection
4 top quality blastocysts. 2 transferred - healthy twins and 2 more embryos frozen x

Hi @KatRee sorry to hear your situation, Ive been there too. They do normally say you need 3 full cycles (egg collections not transfers) to see success. Mine worked 3rd time (Im 14wks with twins) but I would have continued if it didnt work. I just looked at it as its a numbers game, a lottery.
Good luck for your next round (I didnt do anything different for mine).

Wow @Dochas1211 - I am in awe of your strength and determination, not only in putting yourself through 6 rounds, but in getting all those tests done and making lifestyle changes too. What an inspiration you are! Congratulations on your pregnancy!

Thank you for sharing your story- At the moment, I'm considering doing 2 rounds of egg collection before any more transfers so that I can focus first on hopefully getting some good embryos and then look at testing to make sure there are no identifiable issues that might prevent them implanting. So, looking at what you tried, I think I would plan the following steps:

Before stims
Supplements (already on a load and have added more and got OH to start taking some since last round)
High protein/low carb diet with lots of veggies
Intermittent fasting 7pm- 10am
DNA fragmentation test and urologist appointment if it comes back high. Consider IMSI and TESE if necessary
Test my testosterone levels, consider adding in DHEA

Before transfer :
Get progesterone levels checked
ERA/EMMA/ALICE
NK cells test

I've also been thinking about acupuncture for a while, so may try that too

Congratulations again @Dochas1211 - Hope the last 6-7 months or so of your pregnancy are happy and healthy !

@tiggerwhocamefortea Thanks so much for replying. I think you shared your story with me once before when I was fretting over our low blast rate after round 1, and it gives me so much hope

After that round my consultant suggested my egg quality might have been affected by the protocol and that they might try aiming for fewer eggs in the hope that the quality would be better. In the event though, the dosage for round 2 wasn't lowered, but the meds themselves were a bit different

I've seen on my clinic's website that they do do natural modified cycles, so I will ask about this at my next consultation

Hope you and your twins are well!

Thanks for your message @GingerBrummie and congratulations on your pregnancy! That is wonderful news and is giving me life and hope this morning

Did you see different results in terms of number and quality of embryos in your cycles, or were they all pretty similar and eventually you just hit the jackpot with two that actually stuck?

Sending you good wishes for the remaining months of your pregnancy

@KatRee yes this was my approach to try build up some embryos. It is so difficult for us to make embryos I also didn’t see the point of doing transfer after transfer without doing some additional testing and with the exception of the thrombophelia tests every test showed an issue. I also did all these tests after two failed transfers - usually they are only discussed after more than 3 but with so few embryos I insisted on getting them done.

I will say if your consultant doesn’t listen to you about this then move! I found a consultant who took me seriously in my 3rd clinic. The reason my 4AA from round 3 is still frozen is because the consultant at that clinic just said to do the exact same thing again after first transfer failed. I now know that at a minimum the extremely low progesterone I had couldn’t ever support a pregnancy never mind all the other issues found.

Best of luck with it all. If I can help with anything let me know.

Thank you @Dochas1211 . My last cycle was the first of a three cycle package paid upfront at my current clinic, so will have to stick with them for the next retrievals at least. Generally I feel comfortable with them and they are relatively economical and very conveniently located. They don't offer any 'extras' like most of the tests you mention afaik though, so would definitely need to go elsewhere for these. I already thinking of where to try if these two rounds don't go well.

I'm so confused by the general approach not to even suggest tests until three failed transfers when it seems many places also start suggesting people give up after 3 goes as well. How can that be right when it seems there are so many identifiable and fixable issues that can be picked up beforehand?

@KatRee like you, I also started investigations after my failed 2nd round. I had the NK cells biopsy which I believe is similar to a scratch and that round worked. I didnt need the 2nd biopsy even though I had paid for it in advance!
Otherwise my embryos were always poor, I could never make 5 day blasts so they always transferred at day 3. This time I had a good day 3 embryo but it was just luck, as I didnt change anything.
Best of luck to you

@GingerBrummie so glad you got lucky eventually- you say a good day 3 embryo - does that mean your twins are identical from one embryo?
Thanks for speaking with me. It is so nice to hear from people who have been in the same position and got happy outcomes eventually x