Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza settlements - what do you think?

[donnie]

my feeling is that it is a bit of an empty gesture, since they continue their expansionist policies of extending settlements in the West Bank, and also continue to construct the wall which annexes yet more Palestinian land.But perhaps I am being cynical - what do other people think?

I'm with you

has to be a good first step though - I think watching the pictures of the withdrawal does shed a small ray of hope on the whole peace process. after all this was seemingly unthinkable a few years ago...

I agree it's a token gesture but what I'd like to see is the Palestinians saying to the settlers that they are welcome to stay as their neighbours. In return the Israelies should then withdraw from the Gaza port and borders.

I know this isn't going to happen but surely it should be aimed at.

It hurts every time Orla Guerlin says 'Gaza' though.

donnie,a friend of mine has just been over there and says exactly the same.
Errrrr...now would be a good time to admit that I am pathetically underinformed about the whole sorry situation.
Could anyone point me in the direction of an unbiases (if that's possible) internet precis.

Hi,my name is Moondog and I am an ignoramus.

Given the way the Palestinians have been treated, though, I don't think they can be blamed for lacking the saintliness to welcome the Israelis as neighbours.

I've tried quite hard to muster some sympathy for the settlers - because I understand that they were encouraged to build a life there and some of the younger ones have known no other home - but I really can't do it.

Can't help with the precis, I'm afraid.

You can't blame the Israeli's being removed from the settlements having misgivings though.

I entirely agree with the comments some of them have made that once the settlements have been taken over by the Palestinians no doubt there'll be Hamas flags flying - even I knew I was living on 'illegaly' on land - I'd be pretty peeved off if I new there was a strong chance of terrorists moving in after I'd gone!

I entirely understand why some of them have chosen to torch their houses rather than think of Palestinians living there. But I also think they need to realise just how little the Palestinians have and how far they've been pushed.

I have to go against the flow here and say 'm with Israel on this one. They are the only ones making any effort to come to any compromise in this terrible situation and the footage over the past few days has been heartwrenching. No matter what Israel does, the Palestinians always retaliate with more terrorism - they have a pathological hatred for Jews and always will have, not just because they were forced from their land, but because virulent anti-Semitism is an ugly and intrenched feature of Islam. The Jews were on that land 3 thousand years ago (the whole region used to be known as Judea), which is well before Mohammed was born around 570, so they have more right to anyone to be there - facts always forgotten in modern discussions on the region. They have a right to a homeland but have been kicked from piller to post over the past couple of thousand years. In the Camp David negotiations Israel offered the Palestinians 95% of what they asked for and Arafat just refused to come to the table - the whole deal was in ruins thanks to him and the PLO's hopeless leadership.
So, I think it is an incredible gesture the Israeli's are making and I just hope that the Palestinians dont stuff it up yet again, but I dont hold out much hope that they wont do exactly that ... With Arafat dead maybe there is a tiny glimmer of hope though.

"I entirely understand why some of them have chosen to torch their houses rather than think of Palestinians living there. "

From what I understand they're torching their homes as the whole place is going to be raised from the ground and rebuilt?

is it only me that thinks whether someone was living somewhere 3000 years ago or not is completely irrelevant to anything in this day and age? a pretty poor excuse for illegal occupation I'd say. Lets hope the phoenicians don't pop up from somewhere, they would have a fair claim to northern israel, a big chunk of lebanon, etc etc...

I also wonder how much the palestinians have to compromise with!

I hear what you are saying about the Israelis heritage and history, but if we are talking about treating people fairly that how can we blame current palestians for the mistreatment of Jews for 1000's of years. It feels to me (and I admit I don't know an awful lot about the conflict) that the Isrealis are now treating the Palestians as they have been treated for years.

However - I think this is a hopeful move, I just hope it isn't a token pr style move to passify Israels Critics.

Moondog, Oxfam work in Israel/Palestine and have a duty to be unbiased so their website might be worth a look. Not just Oxfam's work there but they usually have links and sources of info as well.

The big difference between the Jews and the Phoenicians is that there are still Jews - no Phoenicians, unless I'm greatly mistaken, so we need to be sensitive to their needs too. I just get really frustrated that in the West most see the Palestinians through rose tinted glasses but few people know the gory details (I used to strongly support their claims, was involved in groups in University and even donated to the PLO) whereas we set the standard so much higher for the Israelis. The Arabs living in Israel are better treated than Arabs in any other country in the Middle East - this is acknowledged by them (I already read this but then my husband visited there earlier this year and confirmed it with various Arab Israelis he spoke to directly). I think its political correctness taking over to uncritically accept the view of the Palestinians. The Israelis have a current legitimate claim to the land they are on. Gotta rush off now, so that's my two bobs worth!

I don't think I would say I support the palestianian campaign without question! In fact i am fairly sure I stand in t he middle of the whole thing think what a mess, what a horrible sad way to have to bring up your families (both sides)

However I do not think that it is satisfactory to say that the jewish history of palestine/Israel makes it acceptable for the occupation of palestian territory. It would be like me going to the borders of scotland and annexing it as part of england as my ancestors have history there . (well not quite like that but almost!)

I do not think building huge walls to sepearte t he people is a long term strategy, and likewise neither is terrorism - which I should add it commited on both sides. I don't know what the answer is, a chance to weep together for all that both sides have lost might be a good starting point.

asummary albeit not brief

here

Its so easy to join this bandwagon and forget the history of the area. What about the fact that Jordan is a made-up country populated by the people we now call Palestinians?

Its all the fault of the bristish anyway look here

mud - i was reading through that history of area I put up - and had completely forgotten how much britain mangled the area!

and the responsibility of the surrounding arab nations of course for pursuing a policy of anhialation for decades and shutting borders

I applaud isreal for making this first step again as somebody has to whilst we in the western world look on in condemnation of eveyr action

alliejane: you say: "virulent anti-Semitism is an ugly and intrenched feature of Islam".

Do you have any evidence for this sweeping (and may I add totally inaccurate) assertion?

I could give you historical examples and references that would lead one to conclude the exact opposite, i.e. "virulent anti-Islamism is an ugly and entrenched feature of Christianity and Judaism".

There is NOTHING inherently anti-Jewish (anti-semitic is the wrong word as I have said ad nausum elsewhere as the Arabs are also semites) or anti-Christian in the holy texts of Islam, nor is there anything inherently anti-Jewish or anti-Christian in the way Islam is practiced. In fact Muslims honour the Old Testament and all the prophets of both Judaism and Christianity.

For every anecdote that you are going to give me about Muslims being anti-Jewish, I will provide you with evidence of atrocities committed by Christians and Jews throughout history against Muslims and Muslim countries.

The Israel-Palestine history of conflict is fundamentally about LAND and the rights of the disposseseed. It is NOT about religion. It is a gross injustice to both the vast majority of secular Israelis and secular Palestinians to protray this conflict as one of religion.

I was in a cinema showing some independent Palestinian films, this week, and appraoced by a man seeling rather nice Palestinian badges 9with a white dove in the centre of the Palestinian falg colours). I bought one and he said 'Allah be with you, Thank you for supportiung the Muslims in palestine'. I said that I was not supporting anyone on the grounds of their religion, but purely on the grunds of a claim to nationhood and land (thinking of the Palenstinian Christians, and never having seen it as a primarily religious issue).

I think it is an unfortunate development of the whole sorry mess that Palestine has been lumped in as a generic 'Islam / Muslim' thing.

My South London African-Caribbean badge seller looked most flummoxed.

Peachskin, I hear what you are saying here my response would not be acutually other religions are more guilty of this that Islam but to say that people of all relgions do bad things in the name of religion.

As can be demonstrated by recent terrorist events that doing something in the name of a religion is not the same as saying that it is part of that religions teaching or history. I cannot think of a religion that teaches of hate and persecution - but then maybe I read things differently