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Original poster

Father kills 10 week daughter and gets 4 1/2 years -- is it enough?

36 replies

AtheneNoctua · 08/05/2008 15:58

Personally, I don't think so. He shook her because he couldn't handle the crying -- which is in fact normal 10 week baby behaviour.

Somehow, I don't think 4 years is enough. I appreciate manslaughter is not the same as premeditated murder, but it is still not enough.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/7390271.stm

OP posts:
FAQ · 08/05/2008 16:03

Gosh that's a difficult one, if it really was due to complete frustration due to the crying (as opposed to wanting to hurt her IYKWIM) then I wonder how many other parents (mothers and fathers) have become desperately close to doing the exact same thing due to not feeling they can cope.

there were times with DS1 (in particular) where although I didn't "throw" him, I put him down very roughly in his cot when he was at a similar age as he cried CONSTANTLY and I was so utterly fed up of him (feel to think that I felt like that - but I did), I wonder what worse I could have (unintentionally) done had I felt just pushed the tiny bit further...

Original poster
AtheneNoctua · 08/05/2008 16:07

But that's just it. An adult puts the baby down and walks away until such time that the frustration is under control. But he shook his baby to death.

Now compare this to the childminder who was accused of killing that little boy (but now is getting a new trial). How long was her sentence? And she (probably) didn't even do it.

OP posts:
Joash · 08/05/2008 16:07

Depends on the realities of the situation.
Although the article has extremely limited information in it - it appears to have some similarities with GS's case. GS's dad still insists to this day that the harm he did to GS at 5 months old was accidental even though a range of experts (and basic common sense) 'proved' otherwise. He was never even charged.

edam · 08/05/2008 16:11

So desperately sad. I don't know whether the sentence is right - if he's remorseful, then it may even be too long. I mean, for someone who is living with terrible guilt for the rest of his life.

If he was trying to shift blame for his own misdeeds onto his wife (who stood trial but was found not guilty) then a much longer sentence would have been in order.

FAQ · 08/05/2008 16:15

I "threw" my baby into his cot as I couldn't stand his crying any more and didn't want him anywhere near me. At the time it was nothing to do with getting my frustration under control.

I'm not proud at all, in fact when I read these stories I often think how I was with DS1 (and DS2 to a small extent) .

I'm NOT defending him, of course it was wrong and he should be punished (like wise if it was a mother who had done the same thing). However as Joash says there are limited details in the article and there are many things which could have been said in court which affected the decision - post natal depression (yes men DO get it too - approx 1 in 25) is just one possibility.

chuggabopps · 08/05/2008 16:18

so sad for the family- my sympathies go out to the family, including the father. He might have done this, but it doesn't mean he didn't love her.

Does anyone know how come it is manslaughter and not infanticide? i thought infanticide was on the statute for parents causing the deaths of those less than 12 months old. Or is it just mothers who can be charged with this?

Original poster
AtheneNoctua · 08/05/2008 16:42

You guys are right. There aren't enough details for me to really judge how this man has reacted.

But I am horrified that anyone could shake their baby to death.

OP posts:
LazyLinePainterJane · 08/05/2008 16:45

I thought infanticide was specifically murder. Could be wrong though.

QuintessentialShadows · 08/05/2008 16:53

It is just so so terribly sad.

wannaBe · 08/05/2008 16:54

I think it's a very difficult one. He will have to live with what he did for the rest of his life, so essentially that will be a life sentence.

I am probably going to get shot down for this but, I can see how someone might shake a baby in the heat of the moment. Am not by any means condoning it, but imagine having a baby that screams constantly, day and night, never stopping, so you are all sleep deprived and at some point you just want it to stop. The logical thing to do is to put the baby down and walk away until you've calmed down, but after no sleep does everyone think rationally?

I wonder how many people have shaken their babies without such disasterous consequences, I would imagine a lot more than would want to admit doing so.

FioFio · 08/05/2008 16:57

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nappyaddict · 08/05/2008 16:58

I have also "thrown" ds on the bed. i did out of anger i suppose and wanted to hurt him but not hurt him iyswim. i knew it wouldn't hurt him cos the bed was soft iyswim.

does anyone know how long you have to shake a baby for, for it to die? is it different for a toddler, pre-schooler etc?

wannaBe · 08/05/2008 17:07

hmmm on second thoughts....

it says

here
(yes yes I know its the mail...)

"Robertson had shaken Lila on at least one previous occasion and had squeezed her against his body, the jury was told.".

"She had also sustained multiple rib injuries and a fractured leg." so not just shaken in a moment of frustration then?

"He appears to have never had any normal training for looking after children." did anyone?

That poor poor baby.

Joash · 08/05/2008 17:10

I would be careful about assuming that just because someone casues a death, thet they will have to "...live with their guilt." Not everyone feels guilt - so that's a major assumption.

FioFio · 08/05/2008 17:11

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Quattrocento · 08/05/2008 17:15

The mitigation put forward by the defence is that the defendant should not have been left in sole charge of the infant due to his "intellect". This suggests a range of potential limitations and disorders - we shouldn't really be shocked at the sentence without being in full possession of the facts.

Joash · 08/05/2008 17:15

I still think that it is impossible for us to decide what really happened. Based on my personal experience all I can say is that the defense "He told the court that Mr Robertson had a low IQ and a "depressive personality" and "Robertson should never have been left in charge of his daughter because of his inability, due to his intellect, to gauge her requirements and what was required of him". could be bullshit dreamt up by his legal team - this is exactly what happened to GS (apart from we were extremely lucky and GS lived) and an almost identical defense was offered by GS's dad's solicitor and barrister. In reality, it was absolute bullshit. GS's dad had a history (another child that he was banned from any contact with) that wasn't even broguht up in court.

wannaBe · 08/05/2008 17:19

if there was more to this, then it does beg the question... was the family getting additional support? Were social services involved? If this man had some kind of learning difficulty, and thus didn't have the capasity to be able to care for the baby alone, then why was he left alone with the baby?

FioFio · 08/05/2008 17:20

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mananny · 08/05/2008 17:21

This is yet another very very sad case that just goes to show that there needs to be a wider and more easily accessible source of practical support for parents. Sleep deprivation is used as torture in some countries FFS. So although I am by no means condoning what this man did, I do believe he NEEDED support. The poor baby had previous injuries which pointed towards rough physical treatment. This was a father who, for many reasons, just couldn't cope with his new baby. Instead of apportioning blame, I think there really needs to be more help available for new parents. It's very easy to say "Oh I could never shake a baby to death" but I reckon nearly every new parent has, in sheer desperation and frustration, roughly handled their new baby. If there was a system where more practical and emotional help was available for all new parents, and was easily accessible, then I believe cases like this might become rarer. Not everyone is a perfectly calm, cool and collected parent, just as not every baby sleeps through at 3 days and never screams for more than 5 minutes. I've nannied for infants who have, quite frankly, screamed from daybreak to nightfall then most of the night too for days on end. If the parents and I hadn't tag teamed the baby then I could easily understand how such a situation could tip you over the edge. I think the government should look into providing free or subsidized care for the family unit as a whole in the first few weeks and months, especially in high risk families (such as this family, with the father's learning difficulties). OK it'll cost a shiteload, but if it means less babies are dying and more families are being taught good coping skills then IMHO it's more than worth it. This poor Dad is going to have to live with what he did, forever. I feel so sorry for him and his family. I wish there had been someone there to help them before it was too late.

Joash · 08/05/2008 17:28

fiofio - yes luckily he is fine thanks, and has not only caughtup with his contemporaries, but passed them in some things. Just got to find out if his hearing problems are genetic or a result of the beating his dad gave him.

mananny · 08/05/2008 17:30

Joash I am so sorry to hear about what your GS went through, it's wonderful to hear he is doing so well considering what happened.

mrsruffallo · 08/05/2008 17:33

I don't think anyone is being judgemental, I am sure many of us have handled our babies a little roughly in moments of sheer exhaustion and frustration.
However, one has to shake a baby VERY hard to do permanent damage.
I can't find it within myself to sympathise, I think there is a point that you don't cross,where you walk away or hand him over to someone else or something.
In this case, it sounds as if the family needed more support but it is very hard if they don't ask for it and are coping most of the time.

Joash · 08/05/2008 17:35

thanks mananny - he's fab, knackering, but well worth it, especially considering how bad things could have been.

I agree with what you said about the guy probably needing support, but sometimes, it's getting them to admit that they need it. I tried to get GS and his parents some support as soon as they left our home - but no-one was interested, we were labelled as over protective grandparents and they refused to admit they needed help anyway. Three times in the six weeks that they had their own home, I had concerns about bruising on GS, and the sixth week was when he ended up hospitalised with his head and face covered in bruises and petechial haemorrhaging and a chest fracture!!

FioFio · 08/05/2008 17:43

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