Undergrad in Belgium or Netherlands?

[HerderofDragons]

Does anyone have a DC who is currently studying their undergraduate degree in either Belgium or the Netherlands? DS is keen to study in mainland Europe and as it would need to be in English these two countries are looking like the best options.

It would just be great to hear any first hand stuff about the application and selection process and about how it is working out for your DC.

Any info at all appreciated. We are based in the UK but have EU citizenship.

NL & DE both have good international English universities. In NL, accommodation is a massive problem in most student cities. Since of the Liberal arts colleges have their own accom, so worth checking those

DD’s best friend has just started at Eindhoven. Finding accommodation has been a nightmare, he was lucky but right at the last minute. I know someone whose DS was elsewhere in Holland and had to go and stay in a hotel at first to be on the ground to find somewhere to live. I don’t know much else as it’s early days

Thanks yes we had heard about accomodation issues. Anyone any experience of the application process? We are not looking at International unis but Dutch and Belgian institutions specifically UvA, Leiden, Leveun etc

A family member studied in the Netherlands. The issue for non Dutch speakers is that even though courses are taught through English, social life is still dominated by Dutch. (I know most Dutch people studying at this level speak good English - but they do not always choose to do so in their social life.) So the anglophone students tend to form friendships with other English speakers.

Dutch Universities do not select on the basis of grades in the school leaving cert (with the exception of a handful of courses) if you have a school leavers cert and apply, you are in. But they do rigorously weed out students who do not pass the end of term/end of year exams. No second or third chances. So the end result is loads of students leaving at the end of each acdemic year. In the case of my family member that meant pretty much all of their friends - which can leave you feeling quite lonely in Y3 or Y4 of a course.

My DD has just started at UvA and really likes it so far. For some subjects you automatically get a place if you meet the entry requirements, for others you get selected. My DD says drop out rate is 80% for maths but I don't know how true that is! The university website gives a detailed list in English of requirements per course and country and there are lots of videos on the uni website about the application process. A further requirement for some courses is to take place in Matching, where you have to do an online exam in May and you are told if you are a good match for the course. You can still enrol if you are not judged to be a good match, but you cannot enrol without taking part in the matching process.

For UvA, about half of international students get accommodation through the university. This is by lottery in June. My DD was unlucky in this lottery, but secured a very nice studio through the lottery of a private student housing organisation. You need proof of enrolment to get private accommodation and this is only possible after fulfilling all requirements and paying the fees, so it would be very hard to get private accommodation in time if you were waiting for A Level results, as freshers week started in the last week of August.

If there is any chance your DS might study in NL then register for room.nl today, as it only costs about 30 euros and lots of studios are allocated by length of time you have been registered on the site.

My eldest studied in NL. Accommodation is a huge issue. As someone above said, it is a sink or swim system, many drop out or are not allowed to continue after first year. Mine has an EU passport, which made things easier but still loads of red tape.

There’s quite a drinking culture still and some unis have fraternity houses.

On the plus side, facilities were fantastic, public transport great, and very safe to cycle.

Cost of living about the same, rents also very expensive.

Thanks so much @KruelladeVille23 and @hechtfanreally helpful info.

Fraternity houses??

https://dutchreview.com/culture/dutch-sororities-and-fraternities/

I know, thought it was just Americans. They are a minority I think. The lucky ones who win the student housing association lotteries get decent accommodation.

My dd did her undergraduate degree at UCLouvain - in French mind. My impression is that it can be a bit sink or swim, as pp put it. You have to pass your exams to move onto the next year and many drop out and change courses. There is no real tutor system, something my dd said she was disappointed about after seeing how UK unis worked. She is starting at Leuven for her Master's - and they seem very well set up for foreign students - admission information etc on the website all in English - with a lot of details of timings and information needed for the applications. They do a number of UG degrees in English too. Accommodation seems to be in the 500 to 800 euros a month including bills. I have friends with kids at NL unis - the fees are higher (in Belgium for EU student it's under 1k euros for tuition) and accommodation is extremely hard to find.

In Belgium even those living in Uni accommodation seem to go home with their laundry at the weekend - small country and cheap travel - will be interested to see if Leuven is much different. It's a very well respected Uni - in world top 50. And a really nice place to live.

Maastricht is another popular one with courses in English.

Student societies (effectively fraternities) are very common. They're unfortunately dominated by obnoxious arseholes but are widely viewed as the best way to get a social life and good job at graduation. I shall disinherit DS if he joins one. I don't think foreigners are generally welcome though, so you probably don't need to worry. I don't know how included he'd be among other undergrads. There are lots of foreigners at masters level who socialise together, but I think he could be quite isolated during a bachelors. The Dutch students don't go out of their way to include foreign students and they're even excluded from things like collections of past exam papers and careers events because they're organised by Dutch language student societies. Socialising works quite differently: you join 1 society and do all your socialising through that, rather than belonging to lots of different clubs. It makes it harder to try things out. In the East the universities have lots of German students because the German system is unfair to students from some states so it's easier to study abroad than to try to get a place in Germany. NL is a popular choice.

I know some of the German students have to do some bits of the Dutch staatsexamen if they can't show they had the correct science or maths certificates. I don't know how it works with A levels and GCSEs.

Mentality of Dutch and Belgian students quite different. Dutch are much louder, more direct. As mentioned above Belgian students are treating uni as extended school, many living at home (although depends on which uni).
Dutch schools already stream children in ability from start of secondary school. So unless you have completed the six year course of sec school, you can't start uni.
Lots of courses that are uni courses in UK would not be so in the Netherlands.

This is all super helpful thanks. Does anyone know if there is any advantage to applying early? Deadline seems to be quite late (April?) But DS is in application mode now with a view to Oxbridge Deadline next month so is keen to get everything done sooner rather than later.

Having worked in universities I would also say if he's Oxford material don't bother with NL. The teaching isn't anywhere near Oxbridge quality and none of the universities are seriously world class. There are pockets of excellence in certain research groups, but no institutions are significantly better than Bristol. Where is your passport from? He'll be better taught at the top German, French or Swiss universities.

Irish passport. He's just keen to get out of the UK and experience a different country plus would save on fees which is appealing as well. He grew up in London and wants a change so that already rules out a bunch of very good unis.

Some courses operate numerus fixus entry. Much earlier deadline. Usually more competitive programmes like medicine. Applicants where my child applied were ranked according to their application and the top however many get in. In reality those quite low ranked can still get in due to people applying and going elsewhere.

My view of the teaching (have insider knowledge) is that it is a high standard and students get way more teaching weeks in a year than in uk. There are lots of exams but it seems people often do resits until they pass. Students with additional needs can opt to do programmes at a slower rate - if they are modular - they collect the number of credits needed over a longer time.

Yes for Leuven you need to apply in good time.

As for the difficulties in joining in as an international student in the Netherlands..ok...bit different but I know several Dutch doctors who have come to work in the UK and who have found it incredibly difficult to make friends here compared to the Netherlands.
Belgium can also be a bit more difficult as so many students still live at home (but as mentioned, depends a bit on which uni).

It's always difficult to make friends as an expat adult. It's fairly easy as a foreign student in the uk because there's freshers week and a lot of students are new to the area. Everyone speaks English. NL is small so students go home at the weekend, accommodation is segregated Dutch & foreign with most house shares reluctant to take foreigners and social life happens in a language most Brits don't take at school. People will speak English, but it makes it awkward.

It is possible to integrate. All my friends are Dutch, but I'm now fluent and for the first few years I only had foreign friends. It's much the same moving to the UK or anywhere else as an adult. London or Paris aren't too bad because most people are new to the city.

Paaseitjes
That is to some extent true. I also know that my uni experience is ancient ( and which involved both the countries mentioned in OP).

But my Dutch niece has worked abroad in various other European countries. Only in the UK did she find it difficult to integrate.
It is interesting that you say Dutch students travel home every weekend as that wasn't the case many decades ago. Only one of my 3 siblings would travel home every weekend (And which my siblings complained about when their children never came home for the weekend 😁)
I have heard though that for the first year many do indeed stay at home nowadays as the fail rate/ drop out is so high nowadays.

It's almost impossible to get accommodation now unless you know people, so a huge number of students commute every day. It's a real shame because it spoils the student experience. There are also issues because it's costing the NS a fortune with the free travel, so they're considering scrapping it. I guess students coming in from villages are less likely to commute than Randstad students though.

Funny, I found NL hardest to integrate out of all the places I lived. I wonder if NL & UK are superficially quite similar which makes it harder to get over the differences, plus Dutch speak such good English but don't realise they don't understand the culture (and vice versa). Germany & Spain are easier because they're very clearly different, France was easy because to me it was very similar. I wouldn't move back to the UK outside London though even as a Brit. I feel like a foreigner in my home town.

I agree most Brits would find some aspects of Dutch culture difficult to adapt to. Dutch people can be incredibly abrupt and forthright. My child grew up exposed to the language and spent a lot of time in the country from a very young age. That made everything much easier.

The accommodation is such a major issue I would advise anyone to think very carefully about whether they want to risk not being able to go because of not having anywhere to live.

Paaseitjes. Quite fascinating. I used to agree with stretchworkwrigglerepeat that Dutch are so abrupt. When I moved from nl to UK, I liked the English politeness , and in fact felt they were more like the Belgians. But gradually I am missing my home country's directness..

I only know from my friends children. Some commuted first year, but currently staying in their uni town. Others lived too far away to stay at home. So all anecdotal.

And I'm guessing whoever knows me in real life and reads this will know who I am..