Oxbridge - worth reapplying?

[mrsmootoo]

DD1 wasn't given an offer from Cambridge this year. Is it worth reapplying post-A level? Her predictions are good, but obviously it would depend on what she actually gets in the summer. Does anyone know what the success rate is like post-A level? It's for Modern Languages. Or should she just take up good offers from Manchester or Bristol?

I saw this addressed somewhere, maybe on the Oxbridge thread. I think the statistics show that the chances of getting in are about equal pre and post A Level. I don't know if they can see if you've been turned down the previous year and whether that affects their opinion of the student.

Does she want to go through such an arbitrary process again? Same thing could happen.

If it helps, my eldest daughter is doing Modern languages at Bristol. It is a very good department with lovely facilities.

Mrsmootoo

Is she able to request feedback on her application , I know that my son would have had this option this year (Oxford) - has to be done by sometime in April April for them IIRC . I think this is on the Oxford admissions website so may be an option also for Cambridge . If she can , I would concentrate more on this than the general statistics about reapplications , because obviously people do reapply so it can happen and it would be more interesting to me what the actual feedback on your Dd was before making the decision.

Similar to Chunderella's point , I think if she were to reapply (and indeed I think I heard this at a Cambridge open day ) , given she gets the right grades , they would expect her to have used the extra time to go further in and develop her subject before next years interviews - which for MFL gives lots of scope.

I don't have any inside knowledge of admissions , but as a parent that is what I would be thinking FWIW .

Good Luck whatever she decides
Hocus.

Bristol is a top rate university and can do joint honours with a language and something else, which is an advantage over Oxbridge. Would seriously consider taking that offer. If she wants to reapply to Cambridge perhaps defer that place as a fallback?

However - Cambridge will still be oversubscribed next year so a refusal remains more likely than an offer. It might be a tough thing to go through twice. Plus, they generally aren't turning people down out of concern for whether they will get their predicted grades (unless the mock grades were wobbly). It's more that they have lots of applicants who make the grades, so they try to select the ones who they believe will thrive in the kind of education Cambridge offers. Demonstrating enthusiasm for your subject and intellectual curiosity is what turns the interviewers on. And of course even then, it's a subjective business with no guarantees.

If you want to play the odds, the two all-female colleges (Newnham and Murray Edwards) are historically less competitive, but she might not want to go to an all-girl environment when she could be having a more typical uni experience in Bristol and still getting a degree that any employer will respect.

www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/admissions/handbook/section1/1_9.html

This may be helpful

You can't defer and reapply; you have to drop any existing offers in order to start the UCAS process again.

But yes, ask for feedback!

DS's rejection feedback ran to 2.5 sides of A4 and seemed very honest, yet encouraging. It went through every interview question in surprising detail and ended by saying that while DS's learning style would probably not be an ideal match for the Cambridge system, his weird original viewpoint on something or other had given the interviewer something new to think about that he'd never previously considered (bless the chap for expert soothing of adolescent feelings!).

Well two of my three DC applied again for Oxford post A2 having been rejected the first time round. One was successful and the other was not, so the odds of 50/50 borne out there.

Looking closer, my daughter applied first time to Oxford, on the advice of her school, to a smaller, arguably less popular college, that other students at her school had not applied to. She applied for English with all A predictions for her 4 A levels ( this was before the A* came in). She was called for interview but was rejected after what she felt was a very uninspiring, rather flat interview. Her feedback indicated that while her English aptitude test was in the very top band of those selected for interview, she did not demonstrate the level of intellectual curiosity they looked for at interview. She accepted Durham, but even before A level results were out had resolved to apply again : on a closer look maybe first proper look? the English course at Durham didn't fit with her interests.
Anyway, she applied again having got 3As and a B at A level (so lower than her predictions, and despite the words of an Oxford tutor who had visited the school ringing in her ears - "we like A grade in all subjects , so for us 3 A levels with all A grades is better than 4 A levels with a B in the mix), she applied for one of the popular colleges think hogwarts and again was offered an interview. She loved one interview, found the other impossible, but admitted that neither was flat. Again she was sent home without being interviewed at another college. She found out when the English aptitude test results were published that, while above the cut off for interview, she had not scored as highly as the previous year. And yet she was offered a place at her first choice college. The crucial difference she thinks was that she had had the time to read far more widely, she also had a distinction in an extended English paper taken at the time of A2s and her PS was more carefully focussed on her particular interests within English literature too - and certainly she received offers from all other of her 4 choices within weeks of her application, 2 of whom had rejected her in the first year of application...

A couple of years later came DS and an application for PPE at Oxford. He too was rejected first time round having just missed the automatic cut off for the TSA admissions test (apparently by one mark) despite a clean sweep of As at GCSE, and A/A predictions at A level. He accepted Warwick and waited for results.
DS got 3 A*s for A level, and an A for his AS, withdrew from his firmed place at Warwick and applied again. This time his TSA was easily within the interview band but after a rather flat interview( that word again) he was rejected. Feedback just said that the standard had been particularly high for his course in his year ( it was the last £3k fees year as well) and he had just missed an offer.
Interestingly, Warwick turned him down very quickly (one can only wonder if they were miffed at their previous offer of 3As being accepted and then turned down post results), York and Exeter offered him the same offers they had done the previous year (which he had turned down) and this time Durham, which had turned him down the previous year, offered him a place. Which he accepted and loved.

Morals of the story seem to be that using the extra time post A levels to really polish up the PS and spend time reading round your subject is good. That the process is still arbitrary, and stellar public exam results will help but are not in themselves the deciding factor. That you might not be re-offered a place at your second choice uni, especially if you accept them and then turn them down post results.

Finally ( sorry I'm going on a bit), DD with her Oxford degree and masters at UCL is still looking for a job ( admittedly in theatre) , DS with his Durham degree is at law college with a training contract in place.

Tantalisingduck - you must have nerves of steel. Four times.

Actually it's been 5 times! DD2 applied last year, got to interview stage but then pulled out. She's suffered from Chronic Fatigue for a number of years, and gets excessively anxious and stressed about unknown situations which in a vicious circle worsen the chronic Fatigue. We decided that the prep and interview and waiting would just be a challenge too far for her.

But to be fair - DD1 was fiercely independent. DH and I never even saw her PS, either time, and she only told us the universities she'd chosen once her UCAS form was submitted. DS1 in contrast shared much more which did up the parental stress levels too! DD2 shared every comma addition or word change with us over the dinner table, started fretting about the interview process before her application even went in, copied links of TSR wisdom

....pressed send too early...so we would no doubt all have needed anti anxiety techniques had she not withdrawn.

Just realised we have an Oxbridge success rate of only 20% in this household.

I don't know about the odds, but I do know about admissions. If your DD secures A*AA or above in her A-Levels, and spends her gap year improving her languages she will be looked upon very favourably upon reapplication. Reapplicants are sometimes even at an advantage IF they spend their gap year doing something directly relevant, because it shows dedication and a mature ability to cope with setbacks. Reapplication is a good idea.

Which modern languages is your DD applying for, mrsmootoo?

I just met someone last week (now an Oxford postgrad) - a state school applicant who didn't get an Oxford place for Modern Languages first time around, got his predicted grades, went off to live in Spain for a year, got fluent and confident, came back and aced the interview and got in to his first choice college.

Thanks very much for all your feedback. It's such a minefield!

Bonsoir - she's applying for post A level German and ab initio Russian. She's state school educated, so perhaps has had to work harder to get her grades. I don't know if a private school education adds the finesse you hear about or whether you have an advantage coming from a state school. Anyway it's too late to worry about that angle! I can see that spending a year improving her language could put her in a good position, but it's also quite stressful to undergo the whole thing again, especially as she has good offers from other good universities. Waiting for feedback which will be key, and also of course her summer results.

IMVHO, state school applicants for Modern Languages degrees who haven't had any extra exposure (a parent/family member/extended stay abroad) to their languages are in a poor position for Oxbridge MFL degrees. The good news is that it is really easy to change that by taking a gap year and getting a full 12 months' full immersion!

I was just getting my head round her going off to the other side of the country later this year - now it might be the other side of Europe! Has to be her decision though I think.

You can have a lovely holiday in Berlin or Vienna though!

Absolutely agree that applying again can reap dividends. My (very lengthy - sorry) posts were meant to show that even with stellar results at A2 there is no guarantee that your DD will be successful the second time round. But equally they show that the extra year of maturity can result in an offer even if A level results are below predictions (though obviously still above the Oxbridge requirements).

Of course at the time she applies again her gap year plans will still be in the future ( unless she can fit in a trip abroad between results and the aptitude test?). Neither DD or DS were asked what they planned to do in their year off (and DD only slipped in a sub clause reference in her PS about plans to go to India to teach English as an aside to a comment about a novel she had read based in India).

And do weigh up carefully the possibility ( no more than that though) that she may not be offered a place again by her second choice university if she accepts them now and then withdraws post A2s

Tantilisingduck thank you for sharing all of those details. They help a lot, particularly suggesting that getting an offer can be a bit of a lottery and that the dynamics of a particular interview for a particular DC can vary with the interviewer.

DD may consider reapplying next year, depending on the feedback she receives on this year's interview and her actual grades.