NHS Boss confirms possible staff shortages post-Brexit

[concertplayer]

I saw this in Wednesday's i newspaper. NHS currently has 130,000 EU
citizens employed in its services and if they re forced to leave it could
trigger closures of hospitals.
This point has been made many times by Remainers so could we please
have the Leavers comments here.
He is looking at obesity and bad diet as well as main way to reduce NHS
expenditure by the way .

I'm not a leaver.

But the obvious comments are:

a) no-one has yet suggested that those ordinarily resident in UK would have to leave
b) if UK needed to import workers to NHS (or indeed any sector where a shortage could be demonstrated) that can be achieved in ways other than free movement for certain nationalities only. For example, work permits (maybe leading to settlement) available to all nationalities.

More scaremongering based on assumptions. We all know what assumptions make of us...

Unduly pessimistic rather than scaremongering.

TM did say she wouldn't guarantee the rights of EU workers already here, unless she got a reciprocal arrangement with the rest of the EU. We will have to see how that argument develops.

Work permits would vastly increase the amount of bureaucracy, but yes, could be done.

Ideally we would be training many more of our own Health care staff, and there is no shortage of candidates for medicine, nursing and midwifery, so it should not be beyond the bounds of possibility, but I have yet to hear of any push towards increasing training places.

No shortage of nursing and midwifery candidates? You know bursaries are going. They make nursing a viable option for lots of people who couldn't afford a standard degree course.

Even when the Tories have succeeded in totally privatising the NHS, their cronies will still need nurses for their private health care companies.

I honestly believe the loss of the bursaries will have a greater impact.

Yes, I do know bursaries are going - and that helps to inform my comment about lack of any push towards increasing training places. It doesn't look as though there is any great appetite to find a way to plug a shortage of staff with home grown candidates.

So scaremongering, maybe, but legitimate pessimism, yes.

This will have more impact on the lower grade roles such as cleaning, catering and porters. In the hospital I work in 75% of the cleaners are non-UK, mainly European. I agree that the end of nurseries for nursing is a massive concern, especially as many go into this career later in life as a mature student. The NHS is facing a massive resourcing problem and is crippled by the very expensive terms and conditions under Agenda For Change. Something's going to break soon, unfortunately it will be patients who will suffer from that.

Burseries, not nurseries, sorry

a) no-one has yet suggested that those ordinarily resident in UK would have to leave

No one has suggested it, but no one has guaranteed the right to stay either. It may be that this deters some medical professionals from seeking work in the UK, or from remaining in the UK if they are not certain of their future here.

b) if UK needed to import workers to NHS (or indeed any sector where a shortage could be demonstrated) that can be achieved in ways other than free movement for certain nationalities only. For example, work permits (maybe leading to settlement) available to all nationalities.

It will become distinctly less attractive for Europeans to come if they are not guaranteed the right to settle. While the wages may be a pull factor from outside the EU, this is probably less true for EU nationals, especially with the depreciation in sterling making UK salaries worth less in euros.

None of this guarantees that recruitment from the EU will fall, but it certainly increases the risk that medical professionals will see the UK as a less attractive destination.

I known 3 high level orthoropedic consultants who are already looking into going back to Spain/ Belgium and Paris because of;
The uncertainty of whether they can stay;
Feeling unwanted;
Being told by patients we want you to stay or can't wait for you to go so British people can have your job ( as its so easy to train to their standard!)
Pensions - working in home and then the Uk they will lose years of their pensions

I have to say I agree with Joan. My department is largely staffed by immigrants (me included). There certainly is a feeling of being unwanted and more disparaging is the vocal minority who have begun to openly express anti-immigrant rhetoric during consultations. Of the junior doctors, 2 of our 6 doctors are EU immigrants who are looking elsewhere for the year after next. One of our highly experienced consultants is quickly trying to gain uk citizenship just in case. Whilst yes work permits are possible (and we used to have a great arrangement with India) they take an incredibly long time to arrange and leave huge shortfalls in departments.

Shame of all of this is that even if by some miracle we do stay in the EU they will still leave as they are fed up of being insulted by the media / patients just for doing their job well

The tragedy of this also, is Jeremy Hunt's intransigence, which is already making Junior Doctors consider whether their future lies in the UK. So we add another exodus to it?

Applications for Junior Doctor positions in Scotland increased by 27% this year. nothing to do with having nothing to do with Hunt's contract

I am finding it quite irritating to keep reading discussions about whether or not eu immigrants will be given the right to stay.

I think the biggest concern to employers such as the NHS is that EU immigrants may not want to stay!

I'm married to an EU immigrants and carry his name and I can tell you first hand how there is a very vocal minority making hI'm feel unwelcome - and even I have had a few nasty incidents.

So regardless of the final decisions on the status of those here now, I think more needs to be done to encourage the European workers within the NHS to stay than just stamping their right to remain card

All the young people I know who have qualified as nurses and doctors here have either gone or are thinking of going overseas, even before the junior doctors contract was n the offing. Mainly as a result of increasing stress as so much was expected of them that something was bound to give in terms of patient safety. A major brain drain to Australia where patient to nurse / doctor ratios are much lower.

I do believe that there is a way to control such crisis, if it ever occurs. Special work permits for NHS employees, on top of my mind.