Education in England: help!

[ItsOnlyATorch]

Hi everyone. I've just moved to England from another country and looking to understand the education system. I've got two primary school children at the moment and just wanting an 'English Education System for Dummies' break-down.

I know it is years off, but it's mostly the exams I'm trying to wrap my head around. Google says kids can take between 8 and 10 GSCEs. Why is the number variable? How do you decide how many they should take? What is the time commitment for taking 10 rather than 8 and how does that fit into the school day?

Then there's A levels. Again the number is variable? How many is the norm? Why would you take more? For certain university courses I presume?

Why do they sometimes change to college for their last year of schooling? What's the appeal as opposed to staying at their high school?

Google can tell me that you can take 8 to 10 GSCEs but lacks the nuance of WHY. Hoping to hear from the parents of mumsnet instead.

For GCSE schools offer different subjects and will vary of how many they teach and expect their students to do.
They usually have to do English and Maths as standard. Plus expected to do science (which can be one GCSE or two depending of which version they offer).
A-Levels are usually 3 subjects but some choose to do 4. It's a lot of work for A-Levels so 4 is a lot of work.
College is an alternative to school and colleges offer alternative qualifications to A-Levels for example Btec which may be equivalent to A-Levels depending on subject or what level is being studied.
Some colleges also offer A-Levels and you can do a mix of A-Levels and the alternative ones.

So firstly GSCE number most people do 9 sometimes children with SEND might do less to concentrate on the ones they need some academically able children do more my nephew is gifted a maths and is doing an extra statistics GCSE I think. College Vs Highschool depends on school/area and courses available some areas schools don't have 6th form and most teens go to college but courses would be the same as of they stayed at school sometimes it's because the A level they want to do it isn't available at the high school they are at sp they go to a different high school or college. Colleges tend to have more vocational courses but do have academic ones too. So my friends ds has gone to college as he wanted to do A level Spanish and that wasn't available at his high school. Another friends dd has gone to another high school to their 6th form due to subject choice and another to College to do a vocational qualification.

Many children will take less than that, or none, because they wouldn’t pass them. Many take BTECs or other awards. The number you can take is mainly dependent on the school and how able the child is. There often isn’t much choice available. Eg, all (most) will take Maths, English Language, English Literature, and either Double or Triple Science. That’s five or six subjects already. A child may want to take History and Geography but they can’t because they are in the same block, so they have to pick something else. Some schools insist on a foreign language and a practical/creative subject, such as art or music.

A levels are normally three subjects, occasionally four if one of them is Further Maths to add on to Maths. There are no advantages in doing four, unless for this reason. Doing two A levels is not unheard of either.

Some schools don’t teach beyond age 16, so all their pupils will have to go to college or another school that teaches A levels. Many colleges teach a far wider range of subjects, many vocational, than a school.

Ahh okay thank you! That makes sense that colleges have alternative qualifications! I was never sure if sending kids to college was a practical decision or meant to build independence or something.

Thank you this is exactly the kind of info I need that Google could not offer!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5578905-gcses-in-england-which-subjects-how-many-are-compulsory-what-can-each-school-force-kids-to-take?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

So despite sciences presumably being the same block you can choose as many as you want but there are restrictions on other subjects based on how they're grouped together?

@ItsOnlyATorch in some places, the secondary schools all only go up to age 16 and GCSEs. Everyone then goes to a separate sixth form college for A Levels. This is not quite the same kind of college as a FE college where you could do a range of courses (BTEC, vocational) as well as A Levels.

Not all schools have sixth forms (years 12 and 13) and so they have to leave and go to a further education college or another school that does have a sixth form.

No, who takes what science GCSE is determined by the school, normally on pupil ability. All three sciences are taught, even on the most basic Science GCSE. Eg, You can’t pick biology and not chemistry. You have to do all three, so the school organises that in its planning. It’s because Science is a compulsory subject. A triple Science covers the same subjects but in more depth.

All children would take
English (probably a double GCSE lit/lang)
Maths
Science (often either a double GCSE or a triple, or sometimes biology, chemistry, physics separately)

In addition most schools would expect

• a modern foreign language
• an art
• a technology
• a humanities

Schools may offer lots of other subjects such as

• PE
• Dance
• Drama
• Music (which might be an art)
• a second language
• a second humanities

They would have to get all children to take all of the first block. They would also be expected to offer from the second, but might not have to get all children to take one. They could offer a selection from the 3rd. What they chose to offer will depend on what tutors they have and how they block the subjects. They don't have to offer all subjects with all other subjects.

Some students outgrow school and want a fresh start with new peers/teachers so prefer the college environment to the school environment - they can call staff by their first name for example. Some won’t make the grades for their school 6th form so will go to a college where they can resit their English and Maths alongside their course of choice - our 6th form doesn’t do any level 1 qualifications, just A levels and B tech.

@ItsOnlyATorch to be honest the whole exam system might have changed by the time your children get to that age.
The government recently introduced T- Levels (T for Technical) and V-Levels (V for Vocational) which are equivalent to the A-Levels and supposedly replacing Btec.
But they haven't been very popular (I'm not even sure if the V-Levels have been introduced) so it might all completely change again.

The number vary because some bright kids take triple science rather than double but with the same teaching time (mine did) RE/philosophy/ethics is a compulsory course but it’s optional whether you sit the exam, PE again compulsory but optional whether you sit the exam, my dd1 took all the optional exams so took 11, dd2 didn’t so took 9.

schools do vary a bit and it changes over time more generally

Thanks everyone this is making so much more sense, especially @stichguru with the breakdown and @Needmorelego with the point that it might change anyway.

In terms of change, GCSEs have been around for 40 years and A levels for 75 years. There have been some tweaking and changes to the structure of the courses over that timeframe but they still exist. Other qualifications have been introduced and dropped around them though.

Which country are you from OP ?

It might be easier to compare to you usual system.

@SilenceInside Btec have existed in one form or another for longer than A-Levels.
But the government still wants to get rid of them.
Edit : I was thinking of the City and Guilds qualification not Btec which is another alternative qualification.
I'm not sure if the T-levels and V-Levels are replacing them too.

Yes, @Needmorelego the vocational type qualifications seem subject to a lot more churn than the academic ones, with exception of City & Guilds!

I have a City and Guilds.
I mostly get blank looks when I say that 😁

@ItsOnlyATorch It's time to ditch Google AI and discover ChatGPT. It's by no means perfect, but it's a lot better than Google and you'll find it more helpful for these sorts of questions.

(Mumsnet answers are by no means perfect either, but at least they do tend to correct each other when they make mistakes).

Please note that "Triple" Science is the same thing as taking 3 separate Sciences in Biology, Chemistry and Physics.

Oh thank you. I did double science and so will my son. I thought you could do a combined science that counted for 3 GCSEs like the double counts for 2, but I'm wrong about that aren't I?

Hi @ItsOnlyATorch lots of people have given helpful answers though there are a few discrepancies. Here is my take on it as a parent of DC with differing school experiences and also a former classroom teacher who has worked in several schools.

GCSE numbers: yes some DC will take a lot fewer or a lot more but most YP in mainstream state secondary will take between 7 and 10 GCSEs. The majority (typically about 60% each year) take 8 or 9.

If DC take fewer than 8 it's usually bc they have some SEN and drop a subject in favour of extra support in say maths and English. If a DC takes more than 10 it's usually bc they are doing an extra as a twilight (lessons after school) such as stats for able maths students, or maybe a home language such as Urdu or Polish.

All DC (pretty much) take maths, Eng lit and lang, science (two or three GCSEs).

Science and how it is taken can vary and can also affect numbers. There is some confusion on the thread but the options are basically “double science” (there is no single science GCSE award now) which is all three sciences but two GCSEs, or “triple science” which is individual GCSEs in biology, chemistry and physics. The advantage of this is that you can get stronger and weaker grades eg 8-7-4 if you are not good at (say) physics. With double you get the grade averaged to (say) 5-6 or 6-6.

Some schools timetable triple as an option in an option block; other like my DCs' school set the students into triple and double, with triple done in the same number of lessons (so speedier, hence DC need to be more able). Those DC will get one more GCSE than the rest of their cohort.

The YP then choose options. Some schools insist on geog or history and an MFL; some insist everyone takes RE GCSE; some ask for one from a specific group; some may group the choices in blocks; some may insist on a creative option (drama, music, art, DT); some may insist on a tech option; some may give a free choice. There may be a choice of 1, 2, 3, or 4. Not often more than 4.

Examples: DS2 did triple science and had to take hist or geog and Spanish; he chose history and then had two more choices (PE and computing) which were just chosen from the list of other options. 10 GCSEs. His sister at the same school also took triple, she had to also take one of MFL, hist, geog, computing. She chose geography and then as her free choices, French, music and drama. 10 GCSEs. A friend's DC at another school had to take double science, geog or hist, French and then had one choice (PE). Total of eight GCSEs. Friend of DD's did double science and had four totally free choices and took (IIRC) drama, dance, art and sociology. Nine GCSEs.

Post 16 - three A levels is all you need for uni; some take four but mostly when one of those is further maths. A level equivalents such as Btecs are available and yes, changing rapidly. Most school sixth forms offer only or mostly A levels; colleges offer a wider range of courses (inc A levels) and often a more relaxed environment (no uniform or dress code, come in only when you have a lesson).

HTH and apols for an essay as usual from me haha.

In England, schools are kind of deities with unlimited powers.

It often surprises parents from continental Europe. For some reason, English society supports it uncritically.

The school will have opinion about clothes and shoes (even beyond school uniform), general appearance (earrings, hair colour), which snacks are allowed, school will decide whether your child can go to holiday or walk from school unaccompanied.

If you ask about explanation or logic behind it, there won't be any and everyone will be surprised that you are questioning the school policy because it is literally above the law.
The best explanation is "we can't decide case by case and have to safeguard all children against the possibility that someone will make a bad parental choice, so we need to restrict you from making parental choices which would be totally reasonable in your situation".

English rules are generally fast and reactive - if something bad happens, a new rule will come which will ban a random part of that bad thing, no matter what role it played in the original bad thing.