Please help me prepare for a meeting with the school about DD's performance

[formerdiva]

My DD is 8 and in year 4. Ever since year 1, the school have communicated that her ability is bumping along the bottom of the class (bottom sets for all subjects). Not the lowest performance, but not far off. At the end of yr 3 she was in line with national averages, but as the school performs well that puts DD at the bottom, if that makes sense.

In year 3 things looked slightly rosier, but at a recent parents evening the teacher told us that DD has probably gone back a step. At that point in the meeting, another lady introduced herself as something like the extra support teacher, and they suggested I make an appointment to go back and see them.

It probably went a bit pear shaped then as I started getting tearful (unforgivable I know as DD was with me) but I just can't help getting emotional about it. My DD is such a lovely girl. She's bright in everything but an academic sense and I'm really struggling with how best to approach supporting her.

So I've made my appointment, but would really appreciate some advice on what should I be asking the teachers, what more should I be doing, and what are they likely to talk to me about? I probably won't get many opportunities like this so I want to make the most of it. It doesn't help that I struggle to talk about it without getting emotional.

FWIW I think it's a good school and I'm broadly confident with their approach (the teacher has been misguided before I think as she suggested that my DD should see a speech therapist a few months ago. I think she was a bit wide of the mark with that, but DD loves her and she seems very committed).

From what you say, your dd is not in any way struggling though?
In line with National averages, is just that ~ half her peers do better than her academically, and half don't do as well.
You have to look at what she is doing / can do compared with the previous term, or previous year, not what she is doing compared with other dc.
Don't worry too much about seemingly going back a step - it happens a lot - dc get marked highly at the end of a year as thy are on a roll and feeling confident, and of course that class teacher is also willing them to just push over into the next sub level, but then 1uite a few dc have 'blips' or plateau for a while. Not many (any?) dc make equal gains every term. we just don't learn like that.
At the meeting, I'd just ask the staff if they have ideas of things you can do to support her.
What I'd also do is find a hobby / activity outside of school where she can do something that others can't do, or can't do as well - be that music or sport or playing chess or dance or whatever. Something where she is spending time with a different group of people and achieving something for herself.

You need to ask them what they intend to do. It's no good saying 'we've noticed she's not making progress'. THEY need to do something about it.

Ask to see their record of her progress, I would expect they would at least have records that are updated every half term and should go back to get starting at the school. Then look to see what progress she is making. If it's been flat lining or not as rapid as it should be then they should be putting something in place to support her.

You can support school by helping her with homework tasks etc

I agree with soapboxqueen, this is a meeting for them to explain/justify to you what additional support they will be offering your DD and why.

You've already said that she is doing fine in terms of national averages, she just appears to be struggling in comparison to the rest of the seemingly super-able cohort. But if they are prepared to invest scarce resources in supporting your DD, then at least listen to their reasoning.

If they suggest getting other support involved, such as the speech therapist, ask yourself if they do have a point? What benefits do they think it would bring your DD?

Also, if your DD is aware of being scrutinised and pressurised then it maybe that her self-esteem has taken a bit of a hit. The school may be able to offer her support to boost her confidence.

Hopefully the school will handle the meeting well and you will feel more positive about your DD's school experience. Good luck.

One thing to ask about is a spikey profile e.g. can your DD explain a topic well verbally but struggle to write it down. Does she struggle to read but have good comprehension (DS2 is like this)? Does she struggle to retain information but once it has been learnt then she remembers it forever?

My DS are both dyslexic and struggled in some subjects because their reading was letting them down e.g. if you can't read the instructions on the maths worksheet then you might well get things wrong or not do it at all.

You need to be a partnership with the school with them taking the lead as to what you need to do.

Some great advice - thank you so much. I'm going to read through this several times and plan out my approach. My DM just had a word with me tonight and said that DD had asked her what sort of jobs she'll be able to o as she's not clever, so the point about self esteem is particularly relevant.

How is her reading? If she had trouble with the phonics check - did the school sort that out? Is she able to decode well now?

Her reading is technically ok (now, that is. She did completely bomb her phonics check in year 1 but passed in year 2).

The school feel that her issue with reading is comprehension rather than decoding. She reads a bit for pleasure - nothing stretching like Harry Potter or anything, but rather things like Minecraft manuals. She also writes for pleasure with some atrocious spelling, but she goes at it with enthusiasm!

So lots of good advice here for dealing with the school (who are probably doing as much as they can)...
......have you thought about how you are going to manage the meeting? It is really important that your DD does not pick up emotional messages from you regarding her perceived shortcomings academically. Anthony Selsdon (outgoing Wellington headteacher) was on R4 a few weeks ago. He said we should be saying "How is this child intelligent?" rather that "How intelligent is this child?" Your DD will have many, many talents, her own uniqueness, but don't be surprised if that does not fit into an education system that has been crafted by policy makers a million miles from a classroom!
Good luck....bit of 'state management' and some relaxed breathing if you find it difficult.

Thank you - and thanks in particular for that wonderful quote about intelligence

Are you able to take somebody with you? Not only are four ears better than two, I am emotional as well and DH keeps me sane for such meetings.

Write down what you want to talk about. Ask to see her books and ask what exactly per topic is the problem. If she is national average it is about knowing that she is doing right but can she actually do better? DD is in a strong cohort and just above average but still in the lower second half for maths. It took us a while to understand that in her year the cohort is so good.

Ask how the school tackles the problem. Support is good but it has to be specific. Ask how you can support at home but that it only works if you know what exactly you need to work on. DD's Y2 teacher loved saying "help her with comprehension" without going into details. I came to hate the word as it is far too vague. Ask if the school has programs like websites you can use to be in line with how the school works.

And finally, do not take your child or let her in the room. After your meeting praise her for what she is really good in and if really work is required at home that it is no punishment but to stretch her as the teacher thinks she can do more. Well it in a positive way.

Don't necessarily dismiss the speech therapy idea, bearing in mind that the class teacher will have a lot of experience. Speech therapy deals with receptive as well as expressive speech, and if there is an issue around comprehension that could be very relevant.

I've had some oblique thoughts, but all the good advice is above, so hope it's OK to pitch in with this: this is the second recent thread about a DC being at the bottom of a class. As my maths teacher said, half of the population is below average, and as one of my DC's teacher said to me, someone is going to be bottom, and I would add, none of it says much about success in future life. Speaking from the perspective of growing up in an academically high achieving family where not being top was the crime (not a stealth boast I promise), I would also say that although there is a long haul ahead with lots of academic hoops, it's how DCs approach them that matters rather than what standard a piece of paper says they've achieved. Capacity to work hard, focus, be organised, get on with people, be enthusiastic, persevere, and so on, are more important life skills than how being good at academic tests. Unless you want to be an academic, that is (and I'm not so sure even about that), but most of the world don't and what kind of world would it be if that's all we had? A good school record is neither necessary nor sufficient for doing well in later life. Of course some oxbridge starred firsts go on to achieve great things, but some don't, and far far more people without glittering academic prizes shine in many many fields. (And I love the Selsdon quote too.)

I don't want to harp needlessly on one string, but I do suggest you rule out decoding problems. Children who have had effective phonics teaching do not normally "bomb" the phonics screening check. And if her spelling is now atrocious, that would be a further signal of potentially less than effective phonics teaching. There are, unfortunately, schools that play down this aspect of reading because they don't really "believe" in phonics. Can she decode new words effectively when she reads aloud to you?

Sorry, should also have mentioned that there is also a link between problems with decoding and needing/appearing to need speech therapy.

My dyslexic DS2 benefited from speech therapy and still struggles a bit with picking up the sounds in words and reproducing them correctly. He has a very good learning support teacher who is working on this with him.

This article maybe of interest
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11592620/The-last-word-ondyslexia.html
"The science behind dyslexia stretches far beyond a simplistic imagining of a miscomprehension of words, and an inability to write them down on paper.

We discovered that dyslexia isnt a visual disorder, Goswami explains. Its a language disorder. The way language is heard by children with dyslexia is subtly different to the way the rest of us hear language.

www.how-2do.com

Former, your DD sounds absolutely lovely.
Firstly other posters have given you some great advice regarding questions to ask. Do not lose sight of the fact that she is/has been performing at national average, it sounds like she goes to a school similar to my 3, it's chocka full of over achievers and unfortunately that means that even though your child is performing as expected, somebody has to go in the bottom set. I bet she wouldn't be there in a different school which had kids with a wider set of abilities.
A friends DS, who is now 13, went through something similar in primary. They will basically just do some extra work with them to give them a boost up to the next level, all you need to find out is how to support your daughter/school in this process. It is not a big deal and it is a positive thing that she is getting the extra help, lots of them will be having it.
My friends DS is doing brilliantly at secondary school and is estimated to get A-C grades across the board.
When you talk about your DD her personality shines through, don't underestimate how far that will take her.

Wow - some excellent advice. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this(I've been away for a couple days, hence the radio silence).

Thank you all so much (and Juggling, you are so right about her personality. She's utterly charming, bless her)

I think people often confuse the words average and expected they arent the same thing. 90% of children may achieve in national expectations at the end of year 6, that includes those who are below average....

But she doesn't sound very far behind op. As someone else has said investigate if it's across the board or is it just writing ability for example?

And she sounds lovely.... what is she good at? Use that to build her confidence. Confidence and willingness to have a go/ take risks is often a barrier.

Just to update, I had my meeting yesterday.

First of all, I was very impressed with both DD's teacher and the other teacher who's job title I still don't know! (She basically seems to lead the strategies for children who need extra support. She didn't know my daughter well as she only directly teaches SEN, but that actually seemed to help more as she was completely objective).

They produced some assessments from a year ago that showed that DD is broadly average. Processing skills are slightly below, but nothing to raise alarm bells.

What was very surprising though was the difference between writ visual and writ verbal: the latter was 80 and the former was 130 (in fact I'm tempted to start a different thread about this to see if anyone has any experience of this).

Those who said not to rule out the speech therapy, I think you were absolutely right. It seems that whilst DD is an articulate girl at home she often struggles with full sentences at school (maybe when she's under pressure.) speech and language therapy could help her with this and apparently also the low writ verbal scoring. She apparently has difficulty decoding instructions for tasks and also reading into inferences. Some very specific areas that need support, but I feel so much better for knowing that there's one area where she absolutely shines (...even if I don't quite understand what that means!)

So thank you all for your excellent advice and helping me get the most out of this meeting

Thank you do much for coming back with an update, I'm so pleased that you found the meeting useful and the teachers supportive and specific in talking about your DDs needs. Hopefully she will enjoy her extra support and find it confidence building. to you both.

The school sound very proactive and committed, so that is very good.

As a parent of DCs with SN, our mantra is to praise and emphasis the effort rather than the attainment. Of course we want them to achieve the highest they can, but with a DC who is much below the "average", it's important to keep their self esteem as high as possible.

I posted on another thread recently that my DD got something like 21 out of 60 for a geography test, we were thrilled and so was she, as she had worked really really hard and gained an improvement. Her results might not be the highest, but she has a work ethic which is amazing and I am very proud. Your DD sounds like she is actually acheiving much higher than mine anyway, but I bet you will be just as proud

You know you shouldn't be crying in front of her, but please praise her and find something you can genuinely praise her for, IYSWIM.

Glad the school is being so helpful, it makes a big difference if you are working together. Is your DD going to get a referral for SLT? One thing they will probably also do is a hearing check, just in case (they did with DS2 before he had his SLT).

I think you should be proud of your DD she has managed to perform at average level despite having some areas where she needs help. I have to step back and remind myself that my DS are often working harder than some other children to achieve the same result because of their dyslexia. I largely ignore results in spelling tests, for example.

Good luck with getting your DD some support.