teaching in nursery schools

[spidermum]

DD is in a state nursery and I need some advice. The teacher seems to play virtually no part in her morning there. There is no structure, no set fruit time, not always a story, rarely singing, the children mill around looking a bit lost. There are activities out for them, sand, farm, painting, trays of pasta to play with etc but no adult guidance it seems to me. Most of the kids seem fine but I think dd is a bit lost. I have chosen to stay at home with my kids and I don't need a babysitter. I'm not sure why I am sending her there apart from the social side, which of course is important. My question is what do most nursery teachers do? I really don't see how this woman can call herself a teacher. When I ask her what the teacher and assistant do she says "I've told you before, Mummy, they just talk together!" btw I am not worried about letters and numbers etc I just want her to have a nice time! Also there is no welcome ever when we come in which dh and I think is appaling. I always make a point of saying hello but it doesn't seem to have made a difference.

I do understand spidermum. I took dd2 out of her Montessori nursery because it was too full of 2 year olds (she's 4) and I thought she wasn't getting much out of it. However, the difference in the state nursery which I subsequently put her in was staggering. Exactly as you described. No 'hello, Alex, what a pretty dress you've got on today. Now let's see if we can find your name and put it in the basket' type of thing. And it was from 9.00 to 11.30 - hardly seemed worth the effort of dragging her little body out of bed.

So, now she's at home, 'till September, when she starts 'big' school. We do visit friends, have friends round etc., and I try to make sure we do a bit of something educational too.

Ds1's playgroup is fairly structured. The children and parents are always welcomed at the door. The children sit on the mat for registration and are told anything they might need to know for that day. They then choose which activities they want to do. The helpers give them encouragement where needed/wanted. Then it's time for juice and fruit before they go outside to play.

There's no formal teaching but all the children learn to recognise their own names. Counting, letters etc are learned through play and singing songs together. Ds1 loves it.

That does sound very unstructured, Spidermum. DS has been in 2 playgroups (different cities!) plus sessions at a day-nursery, all on the 3yr+ free funded sessions, and they were all much more structured than you describe, although apparently DS's current group is less structured than many others around here! (I also live in a pushy parent neighbourhood...LOL)..

DS's current group does:
9:15-9:30: free play
9:30-9:40: sit down quiet, roll-call, show-n-tell (excuse to show off and then put fave toys in the 'Treasure Box' until end of session!)
9:40-10:30: free-play activities
10:30-11:00: sit down quietly, wait for name to be called to join queue, queue up, go wash hands, back to sit down at tables for milk/water and fruit (sometimes biscs or other treats)
11:00-11:20: outdoor play if weather permits, otherwise extra stories and group activities.
11:20-11:45: stories, singing.
11:45: Children expected to sit still, waiting patiently while parents queue and pick up.

One afternoon a week there's an extra session for older children where they work on the alphabet, numeracy, mixed with free-play. I was there a few days ago and there's plenty of gossip and chat between the staff, but that doesn't have to rule out structure!

Thanks for posting. I do think its important to have some structure to their day. IMO this teacher is a lazy old ... I know parents have complained before but apparently she's very thick with the head. DH and I are going to talk to the head on Thursday and I feel quite nervous about it. I do feel I owe it to the chn coming up next year. Alot of parents feel the same way as me but don't feel comfortable complaining, some are new to the school and don't want to rock the boat, which I do understand. I just feel very strongly about it. Its such a lost opportunity and we all want the best for our kids. I did think very strongly about taking her out and keeping up with her friends and I still might - it might confuse her a bit tho - oh I don't know! I was also thinking about maybe doing only 3 days and taking her to other things the other 2 days but don't know how this would be viewed. Might have it out with the head... thanks again.

Nurseries - State or Private, Pre-schools etc are all supposed to be following the "Foundation Curriculum" - this runs from the age of 3 right through to the end of Reception in school.

So although each setting could choose how "structured" they want to be, they all should be aiming for the same thing - and OFSTED check this when they do their inspections. So if I was in your position, I would go in and ask what sort of activities they provide to achieve the "6 Early Learning Goals".

As for the teachers sitting around chatting, I'm surprised they've got time - there is a HUGE amount of planning involved in the 3-5s rooms.

Typical day in my DDs room (3-5s).

8.30-9.55am - free play
9.55 - tidy up, register, dinner register etc
10.20 - snack/drinks time
10.35 - stories/singing/Circle time
10.50 - outside play
11.15 - Activity related to Early Learning Goals
11.35 - wash hands, get ready for lunch.
12.15 - most children have finished their lunch, so one member of staff reads stories/children tell their news etc whilst other staff tidy up the room. Parents normally start arriving.

12.30 - end of morning session.

Hi spidermum ... there is a school of thought (not mine I hasten to add) that children this age do not benefit from structure.

DS2 went to a state nursery class (age 3-4 yr olds), which had a pretty formal structure, even stricter than the one zebra has described.

DS1 went to a state nursery class (age 4-5 yr olds) (in another county), where the structure was:
First hour free play inside (no register or carpet time)
Second hour open doors free play inside or outside.
Final half hour: tidy up time inside and outside, followed by some quiet reading, singing, or other circle time.

As it happens this sort of setting was pretty disastrous for ds1; but the staff were actually highly motivated and passionately believed that the setting they were providing was the ideal one for this age of children, and were involved in research projects, bla bla bla. Anyway, I thought I should warn you of this sort of educational philosophy, before you go in to see them.

I wish I had pulled ds1 out of his nursery, but until the final term I didn't actually realise how bad things were

Slinky - I think [hesitation in voice here] that the foundation curriculum is still optional. Can anyone back that up? That is what I was told when I questioned how the two pre-school education systems we've experienced can be so utterly different.

Sorry - I'm wrong - again. The early learning goals and foundation curriculum did become statutory in March 2002.

There is a Steiner nursery group near here that is fairly adament that unstructured learning is best, like Roisin describes -- does not qualify for funded sessions, not surprisingly, as they do no focused learning activities. But even they have a schedule for when singing, stories, snacks and outside play all happen.

Roisin

Oh I didn't realise that - I've only ever worked in private day nursery settings who have all followed the Foundation.

Had our OFSTED inspection recently (my first one) - and they spent a lot of time studying our planning of activities/watching them and us demonstrating how each Early Learning Goal is achieved.

LOL Roisin - our posts crossed

Slinky, we have just had our first OFSTED education standards inspection, as our previous ones were looking at the overall standards. They checked that all 6 areas were covered, the planning etc. We got a very good - hurrah!!!
I am not sure about state ones though.

Well done Littlerach

We also done incredibly well this year - always got good etc. This time we got Very Good in every single area.

I've just looked on the OFSTED site - just had a look at a report for a state school nursery - again it identified the 6 Early Learning Goals, so I assume that they still have to achieve them.

Thanks again for postings. It isn't the fact that there seems to be no structure to her day that bothers me most, although I think she would benefit if there was, but the fact that the teacher concerned seems to strive for them to be more independent as her main goal for them and to suit her. They simply come in, have free play, go outside, come in for a story if they're lucky and then go home. The only guided activities they do are if a parent comes in. The teacher told me there was 'no educational value' in these activities when I asked why morning and afternoon children did different craft activities. I knew very well it was because parents came and did them and that was why, I just wanted to see what she said. They don't have a set fruit time ('not all of them like fruit' - wasn't that the point of the government providing fruit so that children who don't eat much fruit get the chance at school - we all know that children just might try something if they see their friends doing it.) fruit can be eaten at any time (or choked on) It's not washed, apples not peeled or cut up ('well they've got to learn to eat the skin, haven't they?'The classroom is a mess, no home corner - it is just so depressing and to top it all all the displays except one are of things we have made with our children at home and have been asked to bring back to school. How cheeky is that? I've stopped doing them unless dd especially asks. Again I asked about the friday newsletter activities for parents and child and she said that some parents don't do things with their children and it was only optional. I'm not sure how her classroom walls would be decorated if we didn't do them and I don't know how she had the nerve to say that when she does nothing with them. Also we have to pay £10 per term craft money - what's that for I wonder? I could go on but dh has finished story so I'm off to sing....

Sorry to say it, but it doesn't sound particularly good to me. Could you check out their report on OFSTED website? Also, as part of the foundation stage, they use building blocks, an official tool to show parents and staff the child's abilities, which is then passed on to school. It may be worth you asking to meet up to look at this, as you have evry right to do so. I also thought that all children were allocated a keyworker to liase with parents - worth a try.
Whilst it may not be important academically, it is still good to know your child has a structured and varied day with caring staff who meet her needs.

The school has a really good ofsted report. She's clever though, I saw her classroom pre and post ofsted last year and the difference was amazing and prompted parents to complain. Having thought she was just uncreative they realised she was lazy really. Same thing this year displays suddenly went up - our stuff mostly - and then we realised some inspectors were coming in.

My ds felt completely lost at nursery. He needs one to one conversation and frankly, he didn't get it there. we had good days and bad, but in the end he was truly unhappy.If you don't feel happy and your child is unhappy I'd suggest taking your child of out of nursery. The bit about children 'milling about' rings true for me too. I don't think the social side is that important. I think two year olds need adults more than other children their own age.

She's 4 and it's the nursery at the primary school she will be going to in September and the one ds is already in. The teachers are supposed to be good further up the school. It's just such a bad start. Anyway I think she's got wind of us coming in. Monday morning we were greeted and new shoes commented upon. Place a bit tidier and even some new work not done at home up on the walls. I don't think I will take her away but we are on flexi-time. Went to the park instead of school on tuesday and think I'll play it like that for the summer term. Just hope and pray she doesn't go up to reception with one group of them. That's another reason for seeing the head actually. I'll let you know how tomorrow goes. Thanks again for your replies.

Steiner schools do have a rythmn though for kindergarten so the idea is you do the same things at the same time each day. That rhythmn is very important in Steiner philosophy. The Steiner Parent and Toddler I went to was more structured than any other toddler group I have been to. The play itself was pretty free though. But they always do something fairly "useful" each day as well like making soup, or bread, and something crafty, and outside. Also they do eurythmy (sort of dancing). I think they're more structured than people realise. Some of them are able to accept nursery vouchers as well.

spidermum in my sonss nursery the children start with free play then after register divide into groups (mixed age). They start in one room and rotate so in a morning they may do painting, construction, dressing up add in outside time, story, and snack/lunch and its pretty structured. During the free play they usually do some sort of drawing - or the older ones do simple reading if they're ready - with an adult.

I wouldn't go too much on OFSTED. I know one nursery with a very good OFSTED report where frankly the person running it was an evil cow, and the children were not treated with any warmth.

Our nursery now (fantastic place) recently had an OFSTED - and the inspectors complained that there wasn't a jug of water out for the children to help themsleves (the children start at age 2!) Nursery manager explained that 2 year olds were likely to knock jugs of water over fairly frequently so the inspectors said fine providing a notice went up which said "children if you need a drink please ask an adult". WHAT PLANET?????? SO the notice went up. FFS!!!! I don't know how much experience of young children ofsted has!

In our rooms, we have to make water available to the children. In my room, (2-3yos) we fill the cups with small amounts of water and leave them at a table where they can access them.

It's only once they get into the older rooms that they help themselves from the jugs.

Just working on the school to provide a similar scheme now......

DD's school has office-type watercoolers in every classroom, which has led to the little maggot insisting she doesn't like tap water...she seems to drink it ok if it's in an old bottled water container though

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Snap Marialuisa ... after school my boys like Buxton water aka Cumbria tap water in Buxton water bottles, chilled in the fridge! What deceitful mummies we are