Indie Schools and IQ

[BadgerB]

I know IQ is tendentious, no accurate measure etc. but I'm interested to know approx what the entry standards are for various secondary schools. For instance, Eton, Winchester, Rugby. Am told state grammars have a cut off point at 120 - how does this compare?

I don't think anyone collects that data, sorry.

It varied per school totally.

Dm taught at an independent school that had once been big and shrunk down to very small. They had an entrance exam, which all had to take... but all were accepted (although they weren't supposed to admit this). The vast majority of children fell into one of two catagories:
Firstly being children who didn't cope in a large school. They often came for a couple of years, then went back into mainstream when they'd regained confidence.
Secondly being those whose parents wanted them at a selective and they'd failed the entrance exam to the others.

They did do a IQ test on arrival. The lowest I remember being 88. Can't even remember why I knew this, must have been in the staff room (when I had holiday and dm didn't probably) when it was discussed.

That's interesting DeWe. The reason I'm asking is DS is at a non-selective prep, on a bursary. We rather thought Winchester would suit him - he's musical, not sporty, and always in the top three in his year (Y4), certainly the top boy, a couple of girls give him a run for his money.. This term there is a new HM who says not Wincoll 'he's not a rocket scientist', and went on to suggest a school noted for its rugger! So we are a bit at sea. There was always a fall back choice in case Wincol didn't work out, but we are wondering if we should go for it anyway

Well, I would look at what you think best for him, not what the school necessarily says. Listen to them, but don't take it all from them. Sometimes they have a hidden agenda too. (was it the heads old school? )

My two thoughts are:

In year 5 my teacher said to my dp that I was "top of the form but wouldn't be if there were potential Oxbridge candidates in the form". He said it was nice to be proved wrong on some things when i go a place at Oxford. He was a lovely teacher, really nice, and not given to saying things that were negative. I still keep up with him and he was always thrilled to be told any achievments, but at that point he misjudged my ability.

My other thought if that top of the form doesn't necessarily mean anything. It depends on the other children, so it can even vary from year to year. When I first went to secondary I was 4th in my form. A friend from primary was also 4th in her form. She was thrilled as normally she was about half way down our primary form to me being in the top 2.
Unfortunately for her it turned out to mean that her form was weaker academically. For some reason our form turned out to have most of the top children it. This was clear once they started setting across the yeargroup and our form had between 50-75% of the top set.

Could it be that rather than academically he doesn't think your ds is up for it, that he thinks that Wincoll is science dominated and your ds' strength is elsewhere, which is why he's suggesting another school. At present I would assume the HM didn't know your ds that well (3 weeks?) and fine, look at the other, but don't make your choice until you need to.

True - he can only know DS from his file, which he had in front of him at the time. Don't think we will give up on our first choice at this stage, but I would like to hear from any Wincoll parents about the standard (IQ even) required. Setting starts in Y6 and at his present rate of achievement I would expect him to be in the scholarship set - unless they are all so poor his year don't have one! That would be a first for this school though

It's a tricky question to answer. My DS sounds very similar to yours. He sat the WinColl pretest last spring. He is a bit dyspraxic so doesn't perform that well in some of the IQ testing. He is also in top 3/4 of a non selective prep when they do normal academic work and not IQ tests. Our head was sure he was suited to WinColl and tried to assure me that he would not be in the bottom sets at WinColl, more likely somewhere in the middle. DS has only been offered a waiting list place, 400 applicants for 130 odd places. Prep head still trying to assure me he will end up at WinColl. I'm not convinced and still have concerns that he will be in the bottom end of his year group, which will be a real shock for him. Not good for the self esteem, but DS still really keen to go.
That being said, there is no harm in having a go at the pretest as long as your head is willing to write him a decent reference.

Thanks yotty. Yes, it does sound a similar situation. I hope the HM would write him a decent reference, but since he didn't recommend the school I don't know.
The HM is from the north and suggested schools there. I do agree about the bottom set being a nasty shock - it happened to me when I went from primary to grammar school - took me a long time to work out that I would have to put in some effort!
I hope your DS gets his place,. Do let me know.

I think I once read somewhere that 2/3 of the boys are in the top 3%. It is very selective and the boys are under considerable pressure do well. The entrance exam is harder than CE in particular the Latin French and maths. The history is very general and the questions quite difficult. The good news is that you're not expected to get all A's in fact most get a mixture of A B C D grades.
I personally wouldn't want my DS to be knocking along the bottom there or even in the bottom 25% because I think it could be very demoralising. You do need to be articulate and a self motivated bevause there are loads of extra curricular activities/opportunities if you DS is prepared to take them but nothing is really compulsory and it is ideal for those who are not mad on team sports or rugby ( there isn't any) and you can be "different" from you friends and follow your own interests. This is a serious school there is no drama on the curriculum only as an extra curricular activity and no music unless you opt to do it instead of doing art DT. Having said this the drama is fantastic at least 4 productions a term and the music legendary with about 30 concerts a term.
Finally it really is full boarding the boys are allowed out on Sunday and no finishing term/1/2 term a day early or coming back a day late. My DS is thriving and happy there but it is not for everyone.

I doubt the super-selective grammars collect information as nebulous as IQ levels for their intakes- they have entrance examinations and interviews to select those they wish to educate. IQ is neither here nor there.

I do personally think you should listen to your head for 2 reasons most heads like to put on their websites that they've got boys into Win Coll Eton etc It is a strong selling point and It is what many are hoping for when they send their DS's to prep schools so if he thinks he stands a chance I would have thought he would be pushing you especially as your keen. Secondly he should hopefully know enough about Win Coll and also your sons ability and what school is best for him.

I do personally think you should listen to your head for 2 reasons most heads like to put on their websites that they've got boys into Win Coll Eton etc It is a strong selling point and It is what many are hoping for when they send their DS's to prep schools so if he thinks he stands a chance I would have thought he would be pushing you especially as your keen. Secondly he should hopefully know enough about Win Coll and also your sons ability and what school is best for him.

Actually I don't think he knows DS well at all. He dislikes schools in the south - suggested Sedbergh for a boy who hates rugby! Don't want to say to much because I have probably given away more than I should and could be recognised...

You do need to get your head on your side because as you've already pointed out he will need to provide a reference although the positive thing is that Winchester interviews all who register with it and the interview lasts at least 2 hours so the house master has plenty of time to get a good idea if your DS is the sort of boy he is looking for.
Secondly if you get a place your prep school does need to be on board with the preparation for the entrance exam which as I've already said is harder than CE and is different so your prep will have to teach your DS to its requirements which can IME be problematic if he is the only one.
Go to see your head tell him you very keen on trying to get a place at Winxhester if he says your DS isn't academic enough for it ask him what makes him say this also ask him how much he know about it and what experience he has of boys trying to get a place there and going there. Good luck for the right child it is in a league of its own.

I've no idea whether they apply a threshold (even informally). The pre-test I think was quite IQ-test like in part, but also involved (in our case) being able to hold a sensible discussion about a poem on a mature-ish kind of level, so just being good at sequences and patterns wouldn't have been enough. Have you had your son IQ-tested, is that why it would be a useful gauge for you?

On the other hand, one of the required WinColl scholarship exams is a specific sequences-logic-and-patterns (I suppose it's NVR?) paper, so they are definitely looking for IQ info in that cohort. I expect to do well on that paper you might need a sort of 140s IQ (but, NB, that's for scholars).

Thanks HG and Binks. I actually went straight to the horse's mouth on this - where better? Wincoll say an IQ of 120 is the cut-off point for a non-scholar, and the entrance exam is equivalent to 70%+ in CE. They also emphasise that achievement in music, sport etc and a love of learning are important.

We are not going to let a score of 120 in his first ever IQ test put us off. I know from experience that practice can raise a score between 5 and 10 points. If he doesn't make it, well, we tried - and we'll have a second choice in place

Ooops - should read score of 125* in first IQ test

State grammars don't require a specific IQ, of 120 or anything else. They have entrance papers which in some cases are similar to some IQ tests, in some cases completely different. The marks from those papers are standardised according to their own processes to choose a certain number or proportion of students. Some might place the standardised cut-off mark at 120, but that is really just coincidence and has nothing to do with having an "IQ" of 120.

In fully selective Kent for example, they standardise to select the top 25% of the cohort, which would work out to an IQ well below 120 though above 100 (the mean) - to the extent that their selection process could be aligned with IQ anyway. OTOH there are individual grammar schools in non selective areas that select less than the top 1-2%, which would mean IQs above 130.

An IQ of 125 is very good. He should be fine.

That's cheering, slipshod - thanks. I think a few Bond VR and NVR books are in order, so that the next time the school test he will know what to expect and perform better. Thinking over our interview with the Head it occurs to me that, because we are on a bursary, he is assuming that we want a scholarship at the next school. If so his remarks were not unreasonable.

I should add that if this is a test you got from the internet it is unlikely to be reliable. You actually have to be properly qualified as an educational psychologist to administer IQ tests.

An IQ score of 126 could be made up of three other scores, eg: 139, 111 and 114 but this candidate might not do well on the 11+ or get in because of the lower scores.

The IQ of 125 was in his school file, and therefore probably administered by a teacher

IQ tests undertaken by ed psychs are significantly more accurate.