Experiences of Sutton Park, Sandford Park, St Andrew’s, Wesley or Mount Temple?

[OrdinaryWednesday]

I’d really appreciate hearing from anyone with recent experience of Sutton Park, Sandford Park, St Andrew’s College, Wesley or Mount Temple secondary schools in Dublin - especially around pastoral care, friendships and learning support rather than just academics and facilities.

I have boy/girl twins going into secondary school, and they have quite different needs.

We currently live on the northside of Dublin. Sutton Park and Mount Temple would be fairly straightforward to reach, St Andrew’s is accessible by DART, and Sandford Park would involve the DART and then the school transport. I think in all honestly Wesley is probably out due to transport. We may move southside in the next few years, but we honestly do not know yet, so I am trying not to make the decision based only on where we live now.

We are Church of Ireland and are looking for a mixed school.

My son is academic, sociable, sporty and a good all-rounder. He tends to look confident from the outside, but he is actually quite sensitive, can take criticism to heart and needs to feel that he belongs before his confidence really comes through. He would benefit from a broad range of subjects, activities and friendship groups, but also from teachers who notice him and encourage him rather than allowing him to drift.

My daughter has profound dyslexia and is very shy and anxious in new situations. She is capable, but she needs a genuinely warm environment where teachers know her, notice if she is struggling and provide strong but discreet learning support. She is not someone who will easily push herself into a friendship group, so the social side matters a lot too.

They are coming from a very small primary school on the northside, with just one class per year. It has been incredibly warm and friendly, and the children have been very well known there. In many ways, I am trying to find a secondary school that can follow on from that sense of warmth and belonging, while also giving them a wider social and academic world.

They would both prefer to stay together in the same coeducational school.
My impressions so far are:

Sutton Park felt warm, organised and manageable, and probably offers the easiest transition. There may also be some children they know through northside activities. My concern is that choosing it may tie us quite firmly to the northside when we are not yet sure that is where we want to build the next stage of family life. I also wonder whether it might be a little small and whether there is enough breadth as they get older.

Sandford Park really appealed to me. I loved the building, atmosphere, leadership, music and debating side of the school. It felt thoughtful, calm and well run. My concerns are that we know nobody going there, the journey is more complicated, and I am not sure how easy it is for friendships to continue outside school if pupils come from a wide area.

St Andrew’s makes a lot of practical sense. It works by DART from where we are now, would suit us if we later moved southside, and we have a few indirect connections through teachers and families. It also seems to offer a huge range of subjects, sport and activities. However, it felt large and slightly chaotic when we visited, and I worry about cliques and whether a shy child arriving without friends would be properly noticed.

Mount Temple is the easiest geographically, and I know many local families are happy with it. My concern is that it may be a little too relaxed or hands-off for my two. I worry that my daughter could get lost in a larger setting, while my son could float along quite happily without being pushed or encouraged to reach his potential. I am open to hearing different experiences, though.

We also visited Wesley College, and it seemed to have almost everything we are looking for from sport to academics and subject choice and strucutre, but I think it would be too difficult for us to manage transport-wise.

I’d really appreciate hearing what these schools are actually like day to day rather than just what appears in the prospectus.
In particular:

• What type of child tends to thrive in each school?
• How strong is the dyslexia and learning-support provision in practice?
• Would a quiet child arriving without an established group be actively helped to settle?
• Would a capable but sensitive child be noticed and encouraged, or could they easily coast?
• Are form or tutor groups stable?
• Is the social culture generally inclusive, or are there strong cliques?
• Where do pupils tend to live, and is it easy for friendships to continue outside school?
• How manageable are the DART, bus or school-transport journeys in reality?
• Do music, sport, debating and other activities help children mix, or do they mainly reinforce existing groups?
• Are there any subject-choice limitations or other things you only discovered after joining?
• Knowing what you know now, would you make the same choice again?

I know every child and every year group is different, and I am not looking for anyone to criticise individual teachers or pupils. I am just trying to get a genuine feel for the atmosphere, the social side, the learning support and the sort of child who tends to settle well.

Thanks in advance. I know no school is perfect, but hearing people’s real experiences would really help us work out where both children might feel happy, supported and able to find their tribe.

I have no knowledge of the schools, but bumping this up in case someone else does. My DC went to a CoI school and in my experience people tend to send their kids to the school they went too, then the local one and then where they get a place. If you aren't in a high priority access group with a feeder school, you maybe at the luck of the lottery which means you might not get both DC in the same school.
I would suggest a school which is a DART and a bus away would be a nightmare, the north/southside divide is real (and any slagging may be hard on your DD). If you want to move, Id do it before starting secondary.
Edit to add CoI tend to be rugby and hockey schools, so kids may already know each other from the local clubs.

Thanks @turkeyboots, that’s really helpful. The transport point is one of my biggest concerns about Sandford - even if it looks manageable on paper, DART plus another bus every day could become exhausting, especially with after-school activities. But it could also be the actual school that could suit their personalities best inside the four walls.

The admissions issue is also something we’re very conscious of, particularly because we need both twins to get places in the same school. We’ll probably have to apply to a number of schools rather than assume we’ll get our first choice.

Moving before they start would certainly make the decision cleaner, but unfortunately we’re not in a position to know whether we definitely want to move southside, or exactly where. Part of the difficulty is that the school decision comes first, and that then may partially itself then influence where we eventually settle.

Good point about rugby and hockey too. They aren’t currently part of those networks, so I'd love to understand whether children arriving without the established club connections still settle and mix easily. Thanks again for bumping the thread.

On reflection I'd really push for a local school (or move now) as getting a DC sent home from school sick on public transport would be miserable. And the drive through Central Dublin could take hours in bad traffic. Id enroll your kids in the local rugby or hockey clubs if this is a route you want to go down. The hockey girls didn't mix with anyone for years at DCs school! Also will make joining clubs easier if they have the basics.
Moving is hard though as house availability is so poor, at any price point, so good luck!
Application wise apply to every school you can get to, CoI or not, as it can be a total nightmare.

My nephew is in St Andrews (primary & now secondary). They have provided amazing pastoral support to him over the years.
It has an enormous range of extra-curricular activities to suit every child. DN has been encouraged to get involved in so many different activities and is doing well academically.

I have no direct experience of the schools but live close to a few of them. My eldest was diagnosed with dyslexia in primary school and is also autistic. The educational psychologist who diagnosed her recommended Sanford Park as a great option for her. We didn't explore it as fees were too much for us. My niece goes there (no additional needs) but is quiet and very academic she is very happy. A lot of neighbours kids are in Wesley appears to be a great school though very hard to get in to.
On location my kids go to a school a bus ride away we are very happy with the school but it is definitely a pain when collecting from parties and they all hang out in the area near the school, would be a lot easier for us and them if their friends lived closer. On the plus side they got very independent very quickly because they knew they'd have to navigate public transport to hang out with friends when I wasn't available to drop them

@turkeybootsThanks, I completely see your point. The sick-day scenario and getting across the city unexpectedly are exactly the sort of practical realities I’m trying to think through, rather than just whether the journey looks possible on paper.

Moving first would certainly make the school decision easier, but the difficulty is deciding where to move before we know which school they will actually get into. Housing availability is another huge issue, as you say.

The rugby and hockey point is useful too. They haven’t done either so far (they have swimming, basketball, football, tennis), although they are sporty, so I’ll look into whether trying one locally would help them get a feel for it. Interesting that the hockey group stayed quite separate in your child’s school, though - that is the kind of thing I’m trying to understand, as I’d like activities to help them mix rather than create another closed group. We will definitely apply widely. I’m beginning to realise that getting two places in the same school may narrow the decision for us anyway!

@joyava Thanks, that is really reassuring to hear. The pastoral side is probably my biggest question about St Andrew’s, particularly for my daughter, so it’s lovely to hear that your nephew has been so well supported over a long period.
Do you have any sense of how easy it is for children arriving into secondary without an established friendship group to settle? I was also wondering whether he finds the size of the school manageable day to day, or whether it took time to get used to it. The range of activities is a huge attraction for us, as the twins have quite different interests.

@Boolabus Thanks, this is incredibly helpful. The fact that an educational psychologist specifically recommended Sandford for a dyslexic and autistic child is very relevant to us. It also helps to hear that your quiet, academic niece is genuinely happy there rather than just that the school has a good reputation.
The location issue you describe is exactly my worry. A school journey may be manageable, but friendships, parties and hanging out can become much harder when everybody lives near the school and you live elsewhere. On the other hand, the independence your children developed is a real positive and something I would like for mine too.

Do you happen to know roughly where Sandford pupils tend to travel from, or whether many use the DART and school transport? I’m trying to work out whether the journey could become a social routine with other pupils, rather than just a complicated commute.

Yes, Wesley was a real winner for due to everything on offer exactly as you said, but sadly I think we need to rule it out as I think transport wise it's not doable. That said I wonder if many people from the dart line go to Wesley or is it really Terenure/Dundrum type areas.

Thanks everyone - these responses are already helping me separate the school itself from the practical life around it. Sandford sounds very strong for individual support, St Andrew’s sounds reassuring pastorally and the transport/location issue may ultimately be more important than it first appears.

That said I know a lot of northside students travelling southside for schools and once they seem to find a few doing the same journey maybe it makes it more of a natural way to spend time outside of school as well as contributing to independence.

I attended a boarding school myself so I'm am conscious of the issues of not having friends locally.

Sandford for a "quirky" kid. I know a few kids travelling to Sandford from Sandymount (I think they get picked up by the schoolbus from Lansdowne) but they are local and their travel doesn't involve the DART.

Many, many kids travel to St Andrews every morning from both North and Southside, all the way from Greystones to Malahide. There's not much around Andrews shop wise, a couple of newsagents and Gleesons, no other public spaces to kill time if they have to hang around for a bit. It is a very big school and a kid could easily get lost there.

I think Wesley is too far for you. You have various options for transport but it will take a long time to get there and back. Their days in secondary are so busy and exhausting already.

As pointed out by someone, hockey is a big thing in these schools. Clontarf HC (Mount Temple grounds) is a lovely club and I highly recommend they join in September. It's not demanding, just one session a week plus a match the odd Sunday.

Thanks @TheCoralDuck, this is super helpful - particularly the Lansdowne pickup for Sandford, as that could make the journey quite different from what I had pictured.

When you say Sandford suits a “quirky” child, do you mean that in the sense that there is quite a mix of personalities and children don’t have to fit a particular mould? That would actually appeal to me, particularly for my daughter, who is very shy and has significant dyslexia and can take a while to find her feet socially.

Do you have any sense of whether many Sandford pupils come in by school bus/DART from outside the immediate area, or are most still fairly local? I’m increasingly realising that my concern isn’t really the school journey itself, it’s whether friendships and after-school life become difficult if most of their friends live around Ranelagh/Sandymount and we are still northside.

Also, do you know what happens with the Sandford buses after extracurricular activities? Do pupils generally have to make their own way home if they stay late? That could make quite a difference to how realistic it is.

Your St Andrew’s comment is interesting too. The kids going from Greystones to Portmarnock/Malahide and the transport network really appeal to me, but “a child could easily get lost there” is exactly my concern. Do you know whether that tends to be more of an issue socially, pastorally, academically, or simply because of the physical size? I’d be interested to know whether form tutors/year heads actively pick up on quiet children who aren’t settling, or whether the child really has to advocate for themselves.

And finally, if you had a quiet, anxious child who needed to be known well, alongside a sociable sporty sibling who would enjoy lots of activities, would you personally lean Sandford or St Andrew’s?

Thanks again - this is exactly the kind of practical information that is hard to get from open days.

Also, just throwing this out generally in case anyone else knows, does anyone have first-hand experience of how the dyslexia support actually works day to day in Sandford or St Andrew’s? I know both have good reputations in different ways, but I’d love to know what it looks like in practice for a child who needs regular support but probably wouldn’t be the type to put her hand up and ask for it.

I’d also be really interested to know whether St Andrew’s feels smaller once you’re actually in it. Is there a form group or tutor system that gives children a sort of home base, or does it still feel like a very big school day to day?
And on the friendship side, do children really make friends across Dublin because so many of them travel, or do they still mostly end up socialising with the people who live near them?

The hockey point is useful too. We actually know a good few people in Clontarf Hockey Club and have thought about it before, but it has always clashed with other commitments. I’m wondering whether we might manage a camp or two instead, even if joining properly is tricky this year.

I played hockey myself at school and had never played before I started, and there were plenty of others in the same boat. Is that still the case in schools like St Andrew’s and Sandford, or are most of the hockey kids already quite established through clubs by first year? I wouldn’t mind them being beginners at all, but I’d hate to discover that not already playing puts them at a big social disadvantage.

Thanks again all for your help and advice, I really really appreciate it, not being from Dublin and these being our only kids it feels like a big decision!

Sandford is a much smaller school so it has more of a family feel. I know of a family with kids ranging from being on the spectrum to just being bright and sporty and they are all doing very well and the parents are very happy with the support they are getting. I also know of a couple of kids with dyslexia and again, they are very happy in the school and thriving.

The kids I know are all from Sandymount and D6. Given that they do the pickups from the DART station, I suspect there's quite a few travelling from further afar. I don't know if the bus is available if you're doing extra curriculars and sports but I suspect it is. Best to check with the school directly.

Regarding St Andrews, yes, it is a big school and yes you could get a bit lost there but at the same time you are more likely to find your tribe within a school like that. I think in Andrews there really is something for everyone. Any parent I know with a kid who's gone into 1st year there have said that the first 6 months were difficult as the kids are trying to navigate new friendships, it's not easy but it's the same in all schools. If there's a bunch of them coming from a local feeder school, Andrews will split them and they all will be in different classes so these primary school cliques are effectively gone. Their own junior school only has about 50 kids going into 1st year so that's 100 kids coming in from all over Dublin. Your kids won't be the odd ones out in that regard.

Re hockey, yes a lot of them will know each other from the local hockey clubs (mostly Monkstown, Railway Union, Pembroke). Railway Union and Pembroke are on the Dart line so might be worth considering joining one of these clubs in the new season. My boys play hockey and they know half of South Dublin through training and matches. A lot of the local primary school boys that play hockey in these clubs will end up in St Andrews, Sandford or Newpark (also the High School and Wesley) so there's friendships straight away. Boys are generally late starters in hockey anyway, very few primary schools will have a hockey prgramme so there will be plenty of beginners going into 1st year and trying it out for the first time.

I understand you have a lot of concerns but all the schools you are considering are excellent choices. You are not going to find the perfect one that ticks all the boxes. If you are not sure about moving to the southside within the next 6 years, stick with Mount Temple. It's a fantastic school, especially given that local friendships appear to be quite important to you (as they should, it's so important!). Don't overthink the travelling aspect, if Andrew's is on the DART line and it suits, go for it.

I know quite a few families who took children out of Sandford Park in the last two years and didn’t send younger siblings there .
Schools can change quite quickly when a head of department leaves.

@TheCoralDuck Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail. I really appreciate it, this is incredibly useful and so generous of your time.

What you’ve said about both schools actually helps a lot. The smaller family feel in Sandford is one of the things that appealed to me when we visited (as well as just being very impressive on the open day), so it’s really reassuring to hear of children with dyslexia and additional needs genuinely thriving there rather than just hearing that support is available on paper.

The St Andrew’s information is really useful too. I hadn’t realised that only around 50 come up from their own junior school and that the feeder-school groups are deliberately split. That actually reassures me a lot because one of my worries was the twins arriving into a school where everyone else already had established groups. Knowing that a large number of children are starting from different schools all over Dublin changes that picture quite a bit.

And thank you for the hockey information! We know people in Clontarf Hockey Club but it has always clashed with other commitments, which is why we never joined. Railway Union or Pembroke could actually be interesting if we were trying to build a few connections towards the southside as well as the kids just learning the game.

Of Monkstown, Railway Union and Pembroke, is there one you would particularly recommend for children joining relatively late and not knowing anyone? Especially coming from the northside, I’d love somewhere friendly rather than very competitive or where everybody has known each other since they were six.

Also, you mentioned that boys tend to start hockey later, which is reassuring for my son. Is it quite different for girls? Would a girl coming into first year having only done a camp or some beginner hockey be at much more of a disadvantage, or are there still girls starting from scratch too?

Your comment about your boys knowing half of South Dublin through hockey is actually exactly the sort of thing I’m trying to understand. I’m increasingly realising that I’m not just choosing a school, I’m trying to work out where their friendships, sport and day-to-day life might naturally start to overlap rather than having everything scattered all over Dublin.

And yes, I completely take your point that none of these schools will tick every box. I think we’ll probably apply as wide as possible and then make the decision once we know what actual options we have.

@ChimneyPot Thanks, that’s really interesting and definitely something I’d like to understand more about. Thank you also for talking the time to reply with your thoughts. Do you know what the main reasons were that those families decided to leave Sandford, or what changed when the head of department left?

I’m particularly interested in whether it was related to learning support/pastoral care, academics, school leadership or something else entirely, as those would have quite different implications for us.

And were these families mainly leaving from one particular year group or department, or was it something you were hearing more generally across the school? I completely appreciate you may not want to give identifying details, I’m just trying to understand whether it reflects a broader change in the school or a more specific issue.

Finally All,
I’m almost embarrassed to ask this because I know there’s no right answer and it depends so much on the child, but it’s probably the question underneath all the other questions I’m asking. If your own child genuinely had a place in all five tomorrow, which one would you choose first? And what would your next couple of choices be?

Wesley probably impressed me most overall when we visited because it seemed to have that combination of structure, organisation, breadth of subjects, groundedness, sport and activities that we’re looking for. The difficulty is that I think the journey probably rules it out, and I’m finding that surprisingly hard to let go of :(

I suppose I’m trying to work out whether I’m genuinely giving up the option that would have been the best fit for us, or whether I’m idealising it a little based on the school tour and Sandford or St Andrew’s would in reality be just as good, or even a better fit day to day.

Sandford was probably my favourite of the smaller schools, while St Andrew’s is by far the most practical southside option for us because we’re so close to the DART.

So I’d really love to know whether people who know these schools well would see Wesley as genuinely standing out, or whether the differences between them are much smaller once your child is actually there.

Even a very unofficial “I’d probably go X, then Y, then Z” would be really interesting - and I’d definitely include Sutton Park and Mount Temple in that too, as I’m genuinely trying to keep all the realistic options open. I promise I won’t hold anyone to it!

Respectfully, you are overthinking this. All the schools are good (as are the vast majority of all Irish schools) and practicality is key, but ultimately your DC will spend 6 years there and will grow and change themselves over that time.
They may love it, might hate it, there will definitely be niggles and issues with teachers and other students and there is little you can do to control it. All you can do is pick feels best, hope you get in and see how they get on.

Have you considered Kings Hospital at all?

If I had my choice of the five, I'd plump for Mount Temple or Kings (which I realise isn't in your five). Relatives went there and thrived.

Both Railway and Pembroke are excellent clubs. Monkstown is probably a bit too far for you and they also use the pitches at Holy Child in Killiney which is even further away. Railway use their Park Avenue pitch for boys and for girls they use both Park Avenue and the old YMCA grounds on Claremont Road in Sandymount. Pembroke use various pitches across D4, including the one on Serpentine Avenue. For girls hockey you also have Suttonians (boys too I think) and Botanic

I have DC with dyslexia and I would be crossing both Wesley and Andrew's off your list. In my experience private schools, with the exception of Sandford Park and Columbas do not prioritise the needs of children who require additional support. I think it may be difficult for you to find a school where both your children are happy. It sounds like your son could potentially flourish in all schools on your list but I would be concerned about your daughter.

In our experience learning support for dyslexic pupils usually happens during periods when the rest of the class has Irish and French/German. Your dd should have a language exemption so those classes free up her timetable for extra classes to support her. These should be in small groups and focus on helping her with her other subjects. That's the theory at least!

I think Mount Temple could be the best on your list.
It has a sister school on the south side which has excellent learning support so I'd expect Mt Temple to be good. Your ds should be fine there too especially with lots of extra curriculars.

Whichever school you choose, you will really need to be on the ball to ensure that your dd is getting all the support she needs. It can be very draining, a lot of schools will try to wriggle out of their responsibilities for all kinds of spurious reasons. You would think that paying fees would ensure that your child has more resources than in a state school, but believe me that is not the case. I'm not just thinking of my own dc, but the experience of children of our friends and family.

Regarding Sandford Park, children come from the locality, the luas line and the dart line, there's a school feeder bus that picks up from Landsdown. But there's no doubt that the vast majority will be south siders so be prepared to do an awful lot of ferrying them about. One of my dc has a friend from Howth going to one of the south side schools on your list and it's an absolute pain for them at weekends going out with friends, so I'd think ahead to when they're a bit older and wanting to be more independent.

As PP have said, no school is perfect but in your case I'd be trying ti find the best possible fit for your dd. Good luck!

Thanks @turkeyboots, I do take your point about practicality and that there’s only so much you can predict before they actually start. I think I’m probably someone who likes to gather as much information as I can before making a big decision, but I completely agree that whichever school we choose there will be things we can’t know in advance. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Thanks @mathanxiety, that’s really useful. Mount Temple does keep coming up, particularly from people who know it well, so I’m definitely not ruling it out. We hadn’t really considered King’s Hospital because geographically I think it would be even harder for us than Wesley, with no obvious public transport option and potentially being stuck on the M50, but I’ll have another look just so I understand the option properly. It’s interesting that those would be your first choices.

Thanks again @TheCoralDuck, that’s really helpful. Railway or Pembroke sound much more realistic than Monkstown for us, particularly if we were trying to make something work along the DART line. I think I’m going to leave the hockey piece fairly low pressure for now and maybe let them try a camp or beginner session rather than turning it into another major commitment. Your information about the schools and the wider social geography has honestly been incredibly useful.

Thanks @capelmustard, that’s really useful and definitely gives me something to think about. I suspect the southside sister school you mean may be Newpark? I actually know a family who were choosing between Andrews, Rathdown and Newpark, initially committed to Rathdown and then ultimately switched to Newpark, and they seem very happy with the decision. So that’s probably another school I should understand a little better too.

Your point about not assuming that fee-paying automatically means better learning support is very useful. I think that’s something I need to look at carefully with each individual school rather than making assumptions either way.

The Sandford geography is helpful too, particularly knowing that pupils do come in from the Luas and DART lines even though most are still southside. Thanks for taking the time to reply - hearing from someone with direct experience of dyslexia is really valuable.

One thing I probably haven’t explained very well is that part of the reason I’m looking so closely at the southside options is that we genuinely may move that way in the next 1/2 years, although we don’t yet know where or whether it will actually happen. I already have a much better feel for the northside schools through local families, so I’m probably using this thread partly to understand the schools and communities I know much less about and don’t currently have the same access to information on.

So I’d still really love to hear from anyone else who knows any of these schools well, particularly anyone who has had to make a similar northside/southside decision. Every different perspective is helping me understand the trade-offs a little better.

You are hugely overthinking this. All those questions 😳

Not St Andrews - I had a horrible time there with bullying. My parents repeatedly tried to raise it with teachers but were ignored. Teachers barely knew who we were. I eventually left and went to Holy Child Killiney which was completely different and a really supportive school which I loved
Other family members had fantastic experiences in Sandford Park . We travelled from the Northside too