Incoming............coercion of the over 65s.

[MercyBooth]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-pass-booster-jab-sajid-javid-b1954946.html

I remember hearing early on in the pandemic that domestic violence had sky rocketed along with child abuse. I remember some people on here ranting and raving that they saw people buying non essentials. I remember all the AIBU posts asking if they should snitch on their neighbour for various covid crimes. And people posted in triumph that they had cut somebody off because they didn’t share the same opinion. I saw people screenshotting posts on fb and reporting people to their bosses for being “non believers”.

I truthfully think that if covid were to end tomorrow some people would be sorry. Because they wouldn’t get away with being a twat anymore. Because where we once disapproved of spiteful nasty behaviour people are now congratulated for it. It’s now ok to be an arsehole and insult people as long as you’ve got a good enough reason and of course having a different opinion about covid is reason enough.

I think your response about me preferring to see more deaths was really shitty and sarcastic Milky. Do you generally accuse people of wanting others to die simply because they have a different opinion? People can have different opinions you know and if you have to resort to accusing them of being “ mean” then I think it’s you that’s ill informed.

Nobody is mean because they don’t agree with you.

Well... Off the top of my head, I think you might be wrong about that

I have read that that’s the case and I assure you I would love to be wrong. If you have some info I’d love to read it.

You are ill-informed. The rest of that paragraph is a lot of supposition and assumption

What do you think I’m making assumptions about?

The fact remains you and your thread buddy are ill-informed about vaccination

What have I said about vaccinations that you think I am ill informed?

What do you think I’m making assumptions about?

You assumed I would think and say what you accused me of...

What have I said about vaccinations that you think I am ill informed?

Seriously? See above.

Clearly people who parrot trite sayings they've picked up on Facebook get very angry when pulled up on their inaccuracy. That is something I have learned today.

Nobody is mean because they don’t agree with you.

Well, quite.

@FlorenciaFlora

All vaccines are imperfect. This doesn't mean 'they don't work'. But perhaps you would prefer to see even more people die a horrible asphyxiating death, safe in the knowledge it can't possibly happen to you. Which of course it can

Not one single vaccine has the horrific adverse effects that this one does.

What do you call it then when you have a vaccine but then you get the disease. So then you have another vaccine but you get the disease again. Then you have a third. Some unlucky folk get heart problems, others are bleeding from their vaginas for months and some really unlucky folk are dead.

Would you call that a success? Because i fucking wouldn’t. And don’t bother with the yes but if they hadn’t had a vaccine it might have been worse mantra. What’s the recovery rate again for this illness that most people don’t even know theyve got, where the cure for most is to stay in your house for ten days?

Slapping each other on the back for being equally ill-informed is a strange thing to witness this late in the day of the pandemic

I’m not Ill informed. I’ve read enough to know that something isn’t adding up. I imagine you were mentally imagining the sneering remarks you could make about my doing my “own research”. Don’t bother.

Everything I read comes from gov.uk. It’s right there available for anyone to read. Perhaps you should do that. Then we can have a conversation about the policy’s that were put in place that deliberately caused mass deaths of the elderly and disabled people and how those deaths were used to justify a lockdown.We can discuss Hancock’s sudden loss of memory when giving his oral evidence or talk about the flawed vaccine data trials that have come to light.

Horrific adverse side effects?

Given the actual (reliable) data on those, you're categorically proven to be more likely to develop myocarditis just be being human and having a heart that gets you through the day and even more likely to develop it if you've been infected by Covid.

Do you have a link to a reputable study about long term and "horrific" issues regarding periods?

How many deaths have been proven to have been caused by the vaccine?

When your standard response to my different point of view is to assume I must be uneducated then I think I can better judge who might be less educated and therefore unable to put forward a sensible argument. Perhaps it is the fact that I am actually quite highly educated and read widely that I am able to see beyond what the mainstream media tell me

I have checked and nowhere on this thread has the word 'uneducated' been used - so I presume you are referring to my stating a pp (or two) was ill-informed.

When you state "The jabs don't work" then you are obviously, factually incorrect. If you believe this to be true, then you are ill-informed - regardless of your level of formal education.

If you are unaware that from the very outset of vaccine development, it was quite frequently mentioned there would be a strong likelihood of them requiring booster shots at some then unknown interval - eg yearly, every two to four years;, no-one then knew. But it has not come as a surprise to most that boosters or whatever you might call them are now recommended.

Therefore, this statement: The Government has a bit of a dilemma. They have to convince the unvaccinated that the jabs work and at the same time convince the vaccinated that they don't work so they get the boosters. is ill-informed, or if you would prefer, just plain silly.

@Lostinacloud

When your standard response to my different point of view is to assume I must be uneducated then I think I can better judge who might be less educated and therefore unable to put forward a sensible argument. Perhaps it is the fact that I am actually quite highly educated and read widely that I am able to see beyond what the mainstream media tell me

Yet you can’t understand simple maths, proportions, correlation vs causation and underlying factors… I highly doubt your educated credentials. Usually “ I am highly education and can see beyond the mainstream media” = I did my own research on Facebook.

But once again, we are not talking about hospitalisations and deaths, we are talking about how vaccine passports are having no impact on case numbers in Waterford.

Again @Lostinacloud this is complete nonsense. Covid certs are in place in Waterford. The only possible way to see if they are having no impact on case numbers would be to remove them completely, track case numbers and then assess their impact. As someone apparently ‘highly educated’ it is laughable how you don’t understand something as basic as this.

You’re still attempting to belittle me and so I won’t engage, it’s not worth my time. Healthy debate and consideration is interesting and worth my time. Arguing with people who tell me I’ve got all of my information from Facebook and can’t understand simple maths is dull and sadly the predictable end result of attempting to put forward another viewpoint.

I will just say however that I have quite a good understanding of numbers and figures which is why I thought all of this pandemic response was ridiculous the minute it became clear that 99% of people survive covid and the average age of death is above 80. Vaccines don’t stop spread, vaccine passports don’t stop spread but vaccines do protect those who need it from serious illness and death. Great, let’s offer the vaccine to everyone who might need it and let the rest of us get on with our sodding lives without having to be constantly vaccinated and vaccinate our young children just so we can all eat in a restaurant or go on holiday. Case numbers don’t matter if those vulnerable are protected by a vaccine. Vulnerable people have access to a vaccine so why is there still anything covid related in place.

If covid passes were in place for the reason you think they are @Helicopterlife (and I do understand your point) then logically once you’ve had covid and not needed any health care, vaccinated or not, surely you should no longer be required to have a pass so you can get in the restaurant? Even if you did catch it from someone in there, you’d either have no reaction due to immunity or you’d fight it off again as you did before.
But they don’t work like that, natural immunity is disregarded and discrimination is created and THAT is my problem with this whole idea.

Two countries, both with almost identical 67% fully vaccinated populations. One with vaccine passports and masks and restrictions in place - Austria - and one which hasn’t had any vaccine mandates, no covid passports or masks and barely any restrictions - Sweden.
I don’t think you need to be highly educated for this difference to prompt a few questions.

Austria, you say? Enjoy:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/12/austria-province-to-place-millions-of-unvaccinated-people-in-covid-lockdown

@Lostinacloud

If covid passes were in place for the reason you think they are *@Helicopterlife* (and I do understand your point) then logically once you’ve had covid and not needed any health care, vaccinated or not, surely you should no longer be required to have a pass so you can get in the restaurant? Even if you did catch it from someone in there, you’d either have no reaction due to immunity or you’d fight it off again as you did before. But they don’t work like that, natural immunity is disregarded and discrimination is created and THAT is my problem with this whole idea.

That's how the EU pass works. As I'm sure you know.

Vaccinated
Negative Test
Recovered from Covid (valid for 180 days after certificate of recovery issue)

Any of the three are valid for generation of the pass.

@Lostinacloud

Two countries, both with almost identical 67% fully vaccinated populations. One with vaccine passports and masks and restrictions in place - Austria - and one which hasn’t had any vaccine mandates, no covid passports or masks and barely any restrictions - Sweden. I don’t think you need to be highly educated for this difference to prompt a few questions.

There are literally hundreds of peer-reviewed expert written articles as to how Sweden isn't, and never has been, a suitable comparison to almost anywhere except its close neighbours. TL:DR, Swedes are very socially conscious and generally take on board what needs to be done for the greater good. That there were no mandated restrictions didn't mean that the vast vast majority of the population didn't choose to take the necessary precautions anyway. Added to this the population demographic cf more densely populated countries. Obviously, when their cases did rise worryingly, then prompt action was taken with mitigations officially put in place.

If you search the (very informative and non-emotional) Data threads you'll be able to read lots more about the Swedish approach and why a) it would never work in other countries b) it was a risk that paid off, possibly, due to the national character more than to any medical decision made.

True @PAFMO but the tests aren’t free of charge anymore and there are no self tests. Oh hang on, the tests are still free if you are vaccinated in France, but not if you are unvaccinated. But I thought all these passes and countries were locking the unvaccinated out of places for their own safety? So why charge only them for the test?

@milkyaqua - completely missed my point, never mind!

If you’d all stop thinking of me as an anti vaxxer then you might actually be able to have a think about the points I’m making. You’re blinkered by that label because I am daring to speak out against the status quo and that is the designated auto response, but try to step outside that box for just a second….

Salient paragraph from Time (Oct 2020)

"As of Oct. 13, Sweden’s per capita death rate is 58.4 per 100,000 people, according to Johns Hopkins University data, 12th highest in the world (not including tiny Andorra and San Marino). But perhaps more striking are the findings of a study published Oct. 12 in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which pointed out that, of the countries the researchers investigated, Sweden and the U.S. essentially make up a category of two: they are the only countries with high overall mortality rates that failed to rapidly reduce those numbers as the pandemic progressed."

Swedish govt approach outlined (Oct 2021)

sweden.se/life/society/sweden-and-corona-in-brief

To be noted: high % of double vaccinated, no extra-EU foreign travel incoming or outgoing unless for essential reasons. Any EU national needs an EU Covid pass or equivalent before entry.

Sweden remains under emergency measures until 2022.

Its booster programme was launched in September and is currently being extended.

@Lostinacloud

True *@PAFMO* but the tests aren’t free of charge anymore and there are no self tests. Oh hang on, the tests are still free if you are vaccinated in France, but not if you are unvaccinated. But I thought all these passes and countries were locking the unvaccinated out of places for their own safety? So why charge only them for the test?

@milkyaqua - completely missed my point, never mind!

You thought wrong The alternatives (testing/certificate of recovery) are surely to NOT keep the unvaccinated out of places? Otherwise they wouldn't exist. That may be your interpretation, but it's clearly fallacious.

That data is a little out of date! October 2020 during second wave and no vaccines. Let’s see how that’s settled out across 18 months. And being in Europe I see perhaps more ground level attitude and other European media than may be available in the uk. I can assure you that every Swedish person I’ve come across put covid behind them long ago and their shopping centres and restaurants are as packed as any other town or city.

@PAFMO that’s @Helicopterlife’s interpretation.

@Lostinacloud

That data is a little out of date! October 2020 during second wave and no vaccines. Let’s see how that’s settled out across 18 months. And being in Europe I see perhaps more ground level attitude and other European media than may be available in the uk. I can assure you that every Swedish person I’ve come across put covid behind them long ago and their shopping centres and restaurants are as packed as any other town or city.

Yes, that's why there's the other information.

I have already looked at their other information, including deaths and cases which have been on a competent flat trajectory for months.

[quote Lostinacloud]**@PAFMO* that’s @Helicopterlife*’s interpretation.[/quote]
I can't see where pp has said that. Unless you have mistakenly misquoted her.

@Lostinacloud

Two countries, both with almost identical 67% fully vaccinated populations. One with vaccine passports and masks and restrictions in place - Austria - and one which hasn’t had any vaccine mandates, no covid passports or masks and barely any restrictions - Sweden. I don’t think you need to be highly educated for this difference to prompt a few questions.

It is interesting to see the differences atm

@Lostinacloud

I have already looked at their other information, including deaths and cases which have been on a competent flat trajectory for months.

What's a flat trajectory, other than an oxymoron? If you mean falling cases etc, sure. And that's great. But I was responding to your comparison of Austria and Sweden and your statement:

"and one which hasn’t had any vaccine mandates, no covid passports or masks and barely any restrictions - Sweden."

Which is untrue.