Incoming............coercion of the over 65s.

[MercyBooth]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-pass-booster-jab-sajid-javid-b1954946.html

If you like we can compare other countries like Sweden, how about Lithuania with 2.7 million population and one of the most draconian covid passport implementations in the world. Still they see their covid cases soaring, despite a 62% vaccine covering and the unvaccinated basically confined to their homes being self sufficient in order to feed themselves since they’re not allowed in a grocery shop.

Lost do you think that a higher take up of boosters is a good thing for U.K.?

And if so how would you encourage it

If not do you think waning immunity will lead to higher hospitalisation

I’m interested in each part (haven’t really followed thread if you’ve said already)

As above, you can't compare Sweden with anywhere else other than fellow Scandinavian countries, for many reasons, not all of which are vaccine/restriction related.

As I said, the data/graphs thread is very informative and has many long instances of why Sweden is an outlier.

But anyway, we will clearly never agree and that is fine with me. If humans all agreed with other what a boring life. Speaking of which, I have mine to get on with….

Just quickly then @MarshaBradyo, yes I think boosters for those at risk (so not the entire population and all ages) is a good idea. But I fundamentally disagree with coercion and punishment for non-compliance. People should be given the facts and choices and then left to decide for themselves.
Meanwhile the government should fund the health service properly and properly reward staff for their efforts rather than constantly making it more difficult and punishing them.
We should not be arguing with each other about vaccination, we should all turn on the government and ask them why in almost 2 years, with all the knowledge we now have about this virus and our ever ageing population they haven’t “built the NHS back better”

Fair enough Lost I have sympathy with wanting no coercion as I am at limit with forced restrictions and probably have same mental reaction to them by now as some do passes.

I think boosters are key too. But also just looking at NHS capacity I do think we’ve dealt with huge numbers of cases generally when looking at other countries.

Anyway will leave it too as annoying when trying to do stuff and you get in quote city ;

No state should be trying to coerce its citizens into any medical intervention.

It’s wrong, and a slippery slope.

By all means point out the benefits, then leave it to people to choose.

*for the avoidance of doubt I’m double jagged and pro vaccination

@lostinacloud
You state that it’s coercion and punishment. But it’s not just one government in isolation making this decision across Europe. It’s most (I think).

That would mean the majority of governments across Europe are attempting to coerce and punish their population into taking the vaccine.
And I simply do not believe that is true.
I would imagine that - although it’s a challenging decision, based on science - vaccination is the best defence against controlling the virus. Many may make that decision not to have it based on misinformation.

That’s exactly what’s happening across Europe which is why I’m asking people in the uk to look ahead at their future if they allow vaccine passports to become widespread. Sounds like a movie plot but it’s real.

@Helicopterlife

But once again, we are not talking about hospitalisations and deaths, we are talking about how vaccine passports are having no impact on case numbers in Waterford.

Again @Lostinacloud this is complete nonsense. Covid certs are in place in Waterford. The only possible way to see if they are having no impact on case numbers would be to remove them completely, track case numbers and then assess their impact. As someone apparently ‘highly educated’ it is laughable how you don’t understand something as basic as this.

I think ‘they’re not working’ is referring to the fact that Waterford’s cases have been rising steadily despite the highest level of vaccination cover. Clearly, they aren’t stopping transmission (which we know already) so case numbers are rising. So the idea that we need to bring in vaccine passports elsewhere to reduce case numbers/control the virus is a bit silly.

I think we need to accept that we can’t control the virus. We have a vaccine that reduces the risk of serious illness so let’s protect the people who need it and stop trying to make policies that restrict people and have little effect.

@Lostinacloud

Just quickly then *@MarshaBradyo*, yes I think boosters for those at risk (so not the entire population and all ages) is a good idea. But I fundamentally disagree with coercion and punishment for non-compliance. People should be given the facts and choices and then left to decide for themselves. Meanwhile the government should fund the health service properly and properly reward staff for their efforts rather than constantly making it more difficult and punishing them. We should not be arguing with each other about vaccination, we should all turn on the government and ask them why in almost 2 years, with all the knowledge we now have about this virus and our ever ageing population they haven’t “built the NHS back better”

This!!!!

@Lostinacloud
But then - what doesn’t make sense - is that you are suggesting that practically every government, and possibly the world - are attempting to coerce and control their population into taking the vaccine.
This is where I bow out, because to me - this is conspiracy theory territory.

And spreading fear and misinformation on social media, influencing others to make bad decisions for their health - this is the biggest problem - it’s far worse than what any government across the world is doing, surely.

@Lostinacloud

Just quickly then *@MarshaBradyo*, yes I think boosters for those at risk (so not the entire population and all ages) is a good idea. But I fundamentally disagree with coercion and punishment for non-compliance. People should be given the facts and choices and then left to decide for themselves. Meanwhile the government should fund the health service properly and properly reward staff for their efforts rather than constantly making it more difficult and punishing them. We should not be arguing with each other about vaccination, we should all turn on the government and ask them why in almost 2 years, with all the knowledge we now have about this virus and our ever ageing population they haven’t “built the NHS back better”

I agree Our way out of this mess is heavy investment in the NHS to avoid the chaos infection surges will bring, so far that hasn’t really materialised and is alarming in itself. Add the fact we could see many NHS staff leave due to the April vaccine deadline and it’s not the greatest outlook.

We’re now at 40k cases per day and that’s with our current high vaccine uptake, once this current efficacy wanes the boosters will be necessary just to maintain our current levels but that’s only if everyone who is double vaccinated now takes a booster.

The vulnerable and elderly having boosters at the moment may potentially have to have another by the end of spring 2022. By that point most unboosted people could be technically very low in immunity therefore classed as unvaccinated and so the cycle begins again.

If people want to keep the ‘normality’ they have now then boosters could be the trade off.

So this may be that eventually they will be mandatory because the cycle would break otherwise. I know a lot of vaccinated that do not want boosters or annual vaccines.

[quote SpringKit]@lostinacloud
You state that it’s coercion and punishment. But it’s not just one government in isolation making this decision across Europe. It’s most (I think).

That would mean the majority of governments across Europe are attempting to coerce and punish their population into taking the vaccine.
And I simply do not believe that is true.
I would imagine that - although it’s a challenging decision, based on science - vaccination is the best defence against controlling the virus. Many may make that decision not to have it based on misinformation.[/quote]
No govt has coerced its citizens into having the vaccine. Those who can't, and those who won't, are able (in EU countries) to choose instead negative test results. Or, if they've had Covid, they can have a recovery certificate. In many of those countries it was already mandatory (as one might expect) for healthcare professionals to do that (have a Covid pass satisfying one of the three criteria), before other sectors were added.
But people like to use hyperbolic and inflammatory language trying to make people think something is happening that actually isn't.
Thankfully, in countries with large vaccine take up, there's probably going to be a much shorter, less serious winter wave and we'll be out of it sooner.

I keep reading posters saying that the unvaccinated transmit the virus more than the vaccinated. However with regards the Delta variant research shows in a close contact situation it really isn't much different = only 10% and crucially after 3 mths it completely wanes and is the same as the unvaccinated. It is a protection for yourself
From The Lancet "Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory."

@howdiditcometothis666

I keep reading posters saying that the unvaccinated transmit the virus more than the vaccinated. However with regards the Delta variant research shows in a close contact situation it really isn't much different = only 10% and crucially after 3 mths it completely wanes and is the same as the unvaccinated. It is a protection for yourself From The Lancet "Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory."

True, but obviously you have to factor in that the vaccinated are less likely to contract Covid in the first place, and the fact that the study referenced "close" contact which iirc regarded contact/transmission in the close family setting. Did the article say "completely" wanes after three months? I know the article you mean- it's been shared a lot. You'd think if protection had been found to be completely non-existent then the booster programme would have been rolled out before now, though I suppose playing catch up is better than nothing.

I haven’t read it but wouldn’t it come down to hospitalisation/ death not just infection and viral load?

I think the booster is key for winter and it was right to focus on this in last briefing

@Mickarooni There is complete immunity. The Covid resistant individuals' (in the research I linked) immune systems worked so lightning fast they wouldn't even test positive for Covid 19 or antibodies
"Part of their immune system was able to get on top of the virus before it managed to take hold - what's known as an "abortive infection".

And even better they developed their immunity before the pandemic and before exposure to Covid 19 so it must be long lasting and immunity to other corona viruses is cross reactive. All really good news.

@PAFMO I think if they started to say boosters were needed every 3 mths solely to improve transmission levels by only 10% people would tell them to get lost. People are already questioning 6mth boosters.

Should have said the "extra protection" against transmission completely wanes and falls to the same level as unvaccinated.

[quote howdiditcometothis666]@PAFMO I think if they started to say boosters were needed every 3 mths solely to improve transmission levels by only 10% people would tell them to get lost. People are already questioning 6mth boosters.

Should have said the "extra protection" against transmission completely wanes and falls to the same level as unvaccinated.[/quote]
Yes, I'm sure many would.
Hopefully it won't come to that once we get through this winter.

@SpringKit, it sounds like conspiracy theory but it’s not. The French president, prime minister and health minister have all said over the course of the past 2 months that the only reason they introduced vaccine passports was to incite vaccination. They even celebrate how successful it was, quoting boosted vaccination bookings following each of their announcements about vaccine pass implementation. Just this week President Macron made a speech to the nation on Tuesday. In the speech he said that the passport of all over 65’s would be cancelled if they didn’t get the booster jab within 6 months and 5 weeks of their last dose. The very next day newspapers printed stories about how this announcement was so successful in coercing people to book their boosters that the online booking system crashed. All of this is out in the world to see but it’s extremely uncomfortable to acknowledge and so I think too many people don’t want to believe it.

There are also leaked text messages between Macron and his Prime Minister saying that “they’ve got these idiots by the balls” and another minister is openly quoted as saying that France was going to create a “life of shit” for the unvaccinated. How very democratic and non tyrannical

“ People should be given the facts and choices and then left to decide for themselves. ”

The problem with that is that not everyone has the same intelligence to understand those facts.

Some will let what they read on social media/friends/family etc override the facts, because that’s more personal than some unknown official giving them information.

Further complicated by “facts” changing over time as the virus changes and/or science improves.

Throw in health anxiety, distrust of the government, and a sense of subconsciously wanting to feel “smart” or rebellious and it’s no wonder there’s a proportion of vaccine hesitant people who need to be cajoled into getting jabbed. And sometimes it takes a bloody big stick to cajole with, because the vaccine hesitant think “they’ll never actually do that”.