People refusing the vaccine why do defensive?

[fertilitybs]

I know a few people refusing the vaccine.

Whenever it comes up in conversation they her VERY argumentative, even though I haven't started any arguments and am actually quite respectful of peoples choice to not take it.

My question is, why are those not taking the vaccine getting so weird about it? If you're going to decide not to take it you should own your decisions.

Also people not taking it appear very entitled - want their cake and eat it. Still want to go nightclubs but still don't want the vaccine.

Can't have it both ways, you're also not being forced. I have no idea why people not taking the vaccine think this?

Anyway just a rant based on a recent disagreement with a family member.

Feel free to share your experience with me!

My guess is that people are defensive for different reasons including:

A) they have bought the anti-vaccine conspiracy stuff and past experiences of sharing these opinions has been uncomfortable.
I think the conspiracy theorists often have a belief that they have some special knowledge that the majority of people don't understand and so they are fighting the mainstream (hence language like 'sheeple') they set themselves in opposition to the norm because of this belief in special knowledge and understanding. That's quite a defensive start point.

B) they know they are being selfish and have decided that's their choice. But it's not a 'nice' one so they may feel a bit awkward and defensive.
If they don't have a medical condition that stops them getting the vaccine then choosing not to but still going out and about puts those who do have a condition at greater risk. Also our current freedom comes because of the vaccine take up, so to allow everyone else to get a (perceived) risky vaccine whilst not having it themselves basically means they are letting others put themselves in harms way whilst taking the benefit of that.

C) they have a genuine medical reason and are sick of being lumped in with a) and b) types!

On the vaccine passport thing I'm not sure I see it as coercion. It's not that you can't go clubbing without the jab. The start point is no one can go clubbing as it wasn't safe when people were dying. Now the vaccine makes it safe(ish) those who are taking the safety precaution (ie getting vaccinated) can do things that otherwise aren't safe. I see the analogy more like wearing a seatbelt.

@berrylands

'There is no evidence that x or y is a side effect' is very evident in the fertility section of that article. There was also no evidence that bees could fly until a few years ago. Does that mean they weren't flying then?

It's easy to see what they want you to believe from reading that article. But the nuances of the way it's written could hide a multitude of sins.

@leafyygreens no, they weren’t my words.

I also haven’t said that non-vulnerable people ‘should not be having the vaccine’ extensively or otherwise.

I do think it’s selfish to prioritise healthy, non-vulnerable people over front line health workers and elderly and vulnerable people in other countries though. We really don’t need them as much as they do.

@berrylands I don’t think you know what an anti-vaxxer actually is. Many of the people choosing not to have these particular vaccines against this particular virus, are not anti-vaxx.

@ThinkAboutItTomorrow

My guess is that people are defensive for different reasons including:

A) they have bought the anti-vaccine conspiracy stuff and past experiences of sharing these opinions has been uncomfortable.
I think the conspiracy theorists often have a belief that they have some special knowledge that the majority of people don't understand and so they are fighting the mainstream (hence language like 'sheeple') they set themselves in opposition to the norm because of this belief in special knowledge and understanding. That's quite a defensive start point.

B) they know they are being selfish and have decided that's their choice. But it's not a 'nice' one so they may feel a bit awkward and defensive.
If they don't have a medical condition that stops them getting the vaccine then choosing not to but still going out and about puts those who do have a condition at greater risk. Also our current freedom comes because of the vaccine take up, so to allow everyone else to get a (perceived) risky vaccine whilst not having it themselves basically means they are letting others put themselves in harms way whilst taking the benefit of that.

C) they have a genuine medical reason and are sick of being lumped in with a) and b) types!

On the vaccine passport thing I'm not sure I see it as coercion. It's not that you can't go clubbing without the jab. The start point is no one can go clubbing as it wasn't safe when people were dying. Now the vaccine makes it safe(ish) those who are taking the safety precaution (ie getting vaccinated) can do things that otherwise aren't safe. I see the analogy more like wearing a seatbelt.

Who are vaccinated people ‘safe’ from? And if they are now ‘safe’ then why do you need to exclude anyone?

The default position is that we’re allowed to go clubbing and go to bars/restaurants etc. We gave this up for over a year to ‘protect the nhs’ in the absence of vaccines to protect the vulnerable. Our return to the default position should not be conditional on having a vaccine. I wonder how many people would have agreed to giving up their freedom last year if they knew that this would be the case. Nudge, nudge, nudge.

@bumbleymummy
Our return to the default position was conditional on the pandemic bring under control, not on getting the vaccines. The vaccines are useless if nobody gets them, right?

Except they’re now floating the idea of needing the passport to enter bars and restaurants which means people need to have the vaccine to get back the freedoms they willingly gave up last year.

What do you mean by ‘under control’? Having hospitals not overwhelmed with covid patients? The uptake of the vaccines in the most vulnerable groups has been very high - Well over 90%.

@bumbleymummy
Exactly, the goal is hospitals being able to deal with the pandemic and also to avoid as much death as possible.
The alternative to the passport is closing everything again. They have figured that allowing vaccinated people to mix will probably keep cases and hospital admissions to a manageable level

It’s pretty horrifying that people think our basic liberties and access to everyday life should be ‘earned’ back by having a vaccine. We all gave them up quite willingly for over a year to protect people have now been protected by a vaccine. How dare you call people selfish because they haven’t made the same decision as you about having the vaccine that is primarily about reducing your own risk of illness, not protecting others.

Completely agree. This country is turning into an authoritarian, dystopian dictatorship where you will he excluded from access to places if you don't take the vaccine. That people are applauding this makes me really sad. I think those people will look back and be ashamed in a few years

@PopcornMuncher I agree. I don't feel comfortable having it until I'm done having children (probably about 5 years away). I've given loads of money to charity over the years and am a blood donor - I'm not selfish - but I find it sad that The Unvaccinated are just lumped together as one selfish group. Everyone has their own reason for wanting or not wanting it. Dh is nhs frontline and doing really well in his career and couldn't care less whether I have it at all so I think I'll trust his opinion rather than that of an angry mumsnetter!

People, really, a dystopian society because you can't go clubbing?
Is it really that difficult to understand that public health measures are necessary during a pandemic?

@berrylands

People, really, a dystopian society because you can't go clubbing? Is it really that difficult to understand that public health measures are necessary during a pandemic?

Do you think it will stop at clubbing? How far are you willing to let it go before it is too far? Pubs? Shops? Hospital? No jab, no university? No jab, no school? No jab, no benefits?

[quote berrylands]@bumbleymummy
Exactly, the goal is hospitals being able to deal with the pandemic and also to avoid as much death as possible.
The alternative to the passport is closing everything again. They have figured that allowing vaccinated people to mix will probably keep cases and hospital admissions to a manageable level[/quote]
No, it isn’t. You’re just assuming that. Many of the currently unvaccinated could be immune from previous infection given that they’ve been wandering around unvaccinated for the last year. Even if they do contract the virus, they are the groups most unlikely to be seriously ill or require hospital treatment. We know that age is the biggest risk factor. A vaccinated 60 year old is still more at risk than an unvaccinated 30 year old.

People, really, a dystopian society because you can't go clubbing?

No, dystopian because if you don't get vaccinated you won't be able to work in a care home, go to university, nightclubs, or a Premier league football game. And that's before it is extended out to other situations. Which it will be

The same government wants to jail journalists for up to 14 years for reporting on stories that embarrass the government and are trying to make protesting pretty much illegal. Does that not sound dystopian to you?

Vaccine passports for clubbing is the right thing to do. I'm honestly baffled why anyone cannot see this. What the fuck else are we going to do to get out of this mess? Whenever I ask this no one has the answers. It's honestly pathetic

@PopcornMuncher what is the alternative? Why don't people stop moaning and think of VIABLE solutions 🤷‍♀️

@fertilitybs

Vaccine passports for clubbing is the right thing to do. I'm honestly baffled why anyone cannot see this. What the fuck else are we going to do to get out of this mess? Whenever I ask this no one has the answers. It's honestly pathetic

Why do you think that? What proportion of the population regularly go clubbing? Are they of the demographic that is vulnerable to Covid?

@XenoBitch no but they are going to encourage mutations and pass it to other people. Had an instance of this recently someone I know went clubbing and then was panicking about passing it on and had to self isolate. They're going to be isolating all the time it's honestly the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

@XenoBitch a massive proportion of under 30 goes clubbing and who do these people go home to? Their parents which we know are likely vaccinated but that only reduces not eliminates transmission - so where do we go from here? Because I'd give anything for this fucking mess to end but it appears some people are enjoying it

@fertilitybs

Vaccine passports for clubbing is the right thing to do. I'm honestly baffled why anyone cannot see this. What the fuck else are we going to do to get out of this mess? Whenever I ask this no one has the answers. It's honestly pathetic

You honestly can’t think of a way out of this other than asking people to be vaccinated to go clubbing from September?

What about the fact that lots of unvaccinated people are currently going clubbing, eating in restaurants, going to bars etc? How are we managing that without requiring vaccine passports at the moment given the high case levels?

Honestly I've actually had enough of this crap. And conversing with people that cannot see why they should get the vaccine makes me so frustrated beyond belief.

Which js why I think there should be consequences to the unvaccinated because this is a global pandemic a fucking emergency which it appears some people don't seem to understand. But they still want their freedoms to holiday and have a normal life ffs.

Yes @bumbleymummy I think it's fucking ridiculous they're clubbing now / Beyond ridiculous I actually feel like marching to Downing Street and throwing shit at no.10

But that doesn't undo the fact that we are where we are , and no I don't see any way out. Why don't you enlighten me?

We already are on the way out. We’ve vaccinated the vulnerable groups. They’re being prioritised for boosters in autumn. Around 93% of people have antibodies, according to the latest ONS survey, from vaccination or infection. Young people are less likely to end up in hospital so are unlikely to put strain on the NHS (which was the reason for the restrictions, if you remember). And, as I said, we’re allowing vaccinated and unvaccinated people to mix all summer so why don’t you enlighten us about how vaccine passports for clubs (and potentially more) come September are going to make any difference? Other than the fact that you just want there to be ‘consequences’ for the unvaccinated, many of whom are immune anyway because they weren’t in the priority groups for vaccination and have been working/going to school etc all this time.

Honestly I've actually had enough of this crap. And conversing with people that cannot see why they should get the vaccine makes me so frustrated beyond belief.

Maybe just stop posting then. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@TheChampIsHere I was less frustrated before I posted - and what's it to you anyway? Why make such pointless comments? I fully understand I could stop posting, please tell em something I don't know 🙄

@bumbleymummy because they are going to need to keep isolating / which is going to fuck up any businesses that employ younger people for example. It's also going to encourage new variants as I said. There's the risks.

Also - for the tenth time - they can still pass it to someone vaccinated who could need hospital treatment and possibly still die. Vaccine is not bullet proof