People refusing the vaccine why do defensive?

[fertilitybs]

I know a few people refusing the vaccine.

Whenever it comes up in conversation they her VERY argumentative, even though I haven't started any arguments and am actually quite respectful of peoples choice to not take it.

My question is, why are those not taking the vaccine getting so weird about it? If you're going to decide not to take it you should own your decisions.

Also people not taking it appear very entitled - want their cake and eat it. Still want to go nightclubs but still don't want the vaccine.

Can't have it both ways, you're also not being forced. I have no idea why people not taking the vaccine think this?

Anyway just a rant based on a recent disagreement with a family member.

Feel free to share your experience with me!

With the information that is available on a medical intervention that has only been around for less than a year. I have made my decision with the facts that are presented to me.

If the reasons I have stated throughout this threat are “not good enough” reasons in your opinion then nothing will be good enough and then this is when I say to you that quite frankly it’s really none of your business. I’ve chosen to share why, you’ve decided it’s not good enough by your standards.

That’s where you lose my interest and respect.

@TedMullins

I’ve yet to see an unvaxed person respond with a reasoned and rational answer that doesn’t resort to hysteria, rudeness or expletives. People have ALWAYS been free to question and disagree with other’s choices on absolutely anything and everything. *@TheFoundations* do you honestly live your life never wondering, questioning, or disagreeing with anything anyone else does? People post their dilemmas on here daily and get absolutely slated. You really can’t expect people not to have questions about your life choices because that isn’t how humans work. Like you said you’re absolutely free to make your choice and live your life the way you want, and I’m free to do the same. I don’t think my lack of respect for the unvaxed will have any bearing on them whatsoever, I don’t think I “wield any power” (lol) I don’t even think about those who have had a vaccination because I don’t know anyone who hasn’t. But clearly my stance does have some “power” because it’s getting you riled up, so perhaps you care a little more than you like to admit about what other people think ¯\\(ツ)/¯

Ted, a reasoned and rational answer to your question. I have chosen not to have the vaccine as I don't feel I am able to get the answers I require as to the long term risks and the research that has been done to the safety of the vaccine. I am now pregnant and that has increased my concern. I would prefer to wait until clinical trials are complete before I choose to take the vaccine. I don't consider the risk of me personally getting significantly ill with covid to be high. The reason I believe this is due to my own research (risk of me dying from covid 0.0006% risk of being hospitalised 0.0291%). I take a much higher risk every time I get in a car. I make the choice every year not to have the Flu jab for similar reasons. However, when I went to Thailand a few years ago I made the choice to have all of the relevant vaccines. I make different choices depending on the risks and information available to me. I am pleased a vaccine exists to protect the most vulnerable. I believe these people are safer now to have had the vaccine (and if I was vulnerable I would 100% have taken the jab). However, I fail to see how me choosing to have or not have the jab impacts their safety. If the vaccine doesn't protect them then what is the point of it in the first place? And if it does then why does it matter if it's spreading among the unvaccinated? I am sorry you can't respect people who hold a different opinion to you on this matter, but that is your choice. If we were friends in real life I would be happy to respect your choice to not see me, I would not wish to be friends with someone who cannot respect my choices and so the decision would me mutual.

I hope this helps with your first point. If not I'd be very interested to hear which part isn't reasoned or rational or which part is hysteria, rude or expletives.

Link to the source of the statistics in my post (Oxford university):
www.qcovid.org/Calculation

@fertilitybs

I know a lot of people who haven't had it for various reasons and in their circumstances I wouldn't have had it either. At least they have a properly researched reason.

Completely agree. To not even bother research something when it could save yours or other peoples lives around you is plain dumb.

So it's ok to not have the jab as long as the person agrees exactly with your line of thinking, and otherwise it's dumb?

Like, 'if you don't agree with me, you must be thick'?

I don't know anyone who has refused to have the vaccine. I know several who were reluctant but did so for their own reason (not wanting long Covid being the main one).

The anit-vaxxers seem to argue about their reasoning in a manner that reminds me of Brexiteers.

I don't think there are any anti vaxers on this thread. Only Pro choice

In my opinion, the idea that 'there will be consequences' if you decide not to take the vaccine is bullying and sinister. Given that vaccination doesn't prevent you transmitting covid surely testing (of both vaccinated and unvaccinated) is the better way to minimise transmission at large or crowded events. Even that seems really intrusive tbh, but at least it's not effectively forcing medical treatment onto unwilling people. I'm sick of hearing those who are vaccinated preaching to others and having total belief that their view is the only legitimate view. It has to be personal choice. Is it even ethical to give a jab to someone who is only agreeing to it as they've been coerced?

Is it even ethical to give a jab to someone who is only agreeing to it as they've been coerced?

No, it isn’t. Autonomy is a very important element of medical ethics, see Beauchamp and Childress. Coercion would take away the ability to exercise true autonomy.

The thing is, other people make choices that I wouldn't. But, I accept we all think differently. I don't have a right to assume people should think as I do, that's crazy!
For example, I don't smoke. I've never smoked, and obviously would love it if nobody did. But, I'm not the centre of the universe. I have to accept others make a different choice re smoking. I'm also a vegan. I personally think it's the best thing for animals, the planet and personal health. But, again, I know others choose a different diet and lifestyle, and it's not my place to judge.
That principle applies for most things. This vaccine shouldn't be the exception to that. But, to some people, it seems to be the exception to the usual rule of tolerance and respect for others' choices regarding their own body. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it before - coercion of such magnitude to consent to a medical treatment. The harm it's doing to mental health cannot be overstated. I think many unvaccinated people are probably too afraid to admit it in real life, as it's become such a taboo subject. I'm hoping this current narrative surrounding the vaccine will ease off soon...

And the risk of vaccinated people of being hospitalised is much much lower.

So unvaccinated people really aren’t a risk to them abd it’s their own choice whether they want to accept the risk of going to a club unvaccinated.

@TheFoundations yes I do think someone is thick as fuck for refusing something without research - absolutely.

I do not think someone is thick for researching and refusing they are two completely different things.

Why do people twist everything said on this forum? Fucks me off.

@fertilitybs

You are wondering why people are so defensive look back at your posts on this thread, that will explain a lot to you.

I guess you just have to accept you may die or not notice if you catch it or somwhere inbetween Who knows, but be pleased that the rest of us are doing our bit to protect you.

@paddyk

I guess you just have to accept you may die or not notice if you catch it or somwhere inbetween Who knows, but be pleased that the rest of us are doing our bit to protect you.

You’ve ‘done your bit’ to reduce your own risk. I don’t want or need anyone to protect me, thanks.

I've had both personally but the op wonders why her 'friends' are so defensive.

[quote Againstmachine]@fertilitybs

You are wondering why people are so defensive look back at your posts on this thread, that will explain a lot to you.[/quote]
Quite. Sweary, aggressive. It brings out the same in others. Like a mirror.

@WanderingFruitWonderer

The thing is, other people make choices that I wouldn't. But, I accept we all think differently. I don't have a right to assume people should think as I do, that's crazy! For example, I don't smoke. I've never smoked, and obviously would love it if nobody did. But, I'm not the centre of the universe. I have to accept others make a different choice re smoking. I'm also a vegan. I personally think it's the best thing for animals, the planet and personal health. But, again, I know others choose a different diet and lifestyle, and it's not my place to judge. That principle applies for most things. This vaccine shouldn't be the exception to that. But, to some people, it seems to be the exception to the usual rule of tolerance and respect for others' choices regarding their own body. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it before - coercion of such magnitude to consent to a medical treatment. The harm it's doing to mental health cannot be overstated. I think many unvaccinated people are probably too afraid to admit it in real life, as it's become such a taboo subject. I'm hoping this current narrative surrounding the vaccine will ease off soon...

Smoking in public spaces is not allowed in the majority of cases anymore. Before this rule, people didn't have a choice and had to inhale other people's smoke. I think it's the same for the vaccines. We are in a pandemic, and while the virus is circulating at high levels I think people in public spaces should be protected as much as possible from inhaling other people's viruses.

@Againstmachine

I've had both personally but the op wonders why her 'friends' are so defensive.

Want it or not, its what vaccines do, that way all the idiots who think them and thier kids dont need them, (wether thats MMR, Polio or whatever) are looked after by the herd.

@paddyk

This is early days for the covid vaccine, I'd advise you to look into the early days of the other vaccines especially polio.

We have only erradaticated one virus in human history smallpox.

I've had both doses of covid vaccine, so has my brother in law who had massive sides effects that hospitalised him.

@paddyk it's wrong to call people who don't want the vaccine for themselves or their children idiots because they have made a different choice and also I very much doubt that people against this or any vaccine expect the herd to look after them .

@berrylands I totally agree that people should do their best to not infect others with Covid. But, I don't think taking the vaccine is the only way to achieve that. Most people I know who have so far declined the vaccine are not Covid deniers at all (with one exception) and are being extremely careful.
There are multitude of reasons someone may decline the vaccine, it's such a complex moral issue. Which is why we shouldn't judge in my view.
It's quite different from the smoking issue. Sorry, my bad for using that analogy. I realised when I posted it that it was a mistake. Silly me!
It's not comparable, as the smoking ban stopped people activity doing something that was definitely harmful to others. Vaccine coercion is virtually forcing someone to put something into their body that they don't want. At any time, there's a very good chance they won't have Covid at all anyway.
Covid 19 is a new virus; the vaccines are brand new too. So much is still not known about either. Smoking/passive smoking was/is a known carcinogen. Its harmful effects well known. It's not at all the same, in my humble opinion... Of course we can politely and respectfully disagree

You’ve ‘done your bit’ to reduce your own risk. I don’t want or need anyone to protect me, thanks.

@bumbleymummy

But the fact is they are. When a person is vaccinated they are less likely to both be infected by the virus and transmit it. This gives you both individual level benefits (i.e., you're less likely to catch it from that person, less likely to be impacted by immune escape variants) and population level (i.e., reduced transmission will allow the reopening of society - you'll benefit from lockdown being lifted).

Your choice not to be vaccinated, but you seem very set on this idea a vaccination is for personal benefit only and your choice effects no one else.

You’ve ‘done your bit’ to reduce your own risk. I don’t want or need anyone to protect me, thanks.
@bumbleymummy

Whether you want them to protect you and your loved ones or not they are doing so by working towards herd immunity. If enough people get vaccinated then society can fully up again. What solution do the anti vax lot have - constant lock downs and increasing numbers of deaths? Is that a price the anti vax are willing to pay - just keep letting people die, lock down, rinse and repeat? They never actually have a solution.

I think it's the same for the vaccines. We are in a pandemic, and while the virus is circulating at high levels I think people in public spaces should be protected as much as possible from inhaling other people's viruses.

Except people can’t vaccinate to protect themselves from other people’s smoke whereas you can choose to have the vaccine if you’re concerned about the risk to you from the virus.

If you’re still worried about being out when you’ve been vaccinated then you should just stay home.

Finding this OP quite funny actually. I've not had it and won't have it because I won't be coerced into having a medical treatment. Just that. Reading the heavy efforts of OP and the like handing out the riot act, trying to take away my liberties etc simply reinforces my decision. They simply work me in the opposite direction they wish me to go in, lol.

@TheTallOakTrees

You’ve ‘done your bit’ to reduce your own risk. I don’t want or need anyone to protect me, thanks. *@bumbleymummy*

Whether you want them to protect you and your loved ones or not they are doing so by working towards herd immunity. If enough people get vaccinated then society can fully up again. What solution do the anti vax lot have - constant lock downs and increasing numbers of deaths? Is that a price the anti vax are willing to pay - just keep letting people die, lock down, rinse and repeat? They never actually have a solution.

Do people still not realise at this stage that infection also confers immunity?

And don’t be ridiculous about needing constant lockdowns - the vulnerable groups most likely to be hospitalised have been vaccinated. The people you’re calling ‘anti-vaxx’ are mainly young, low risk people that are unlikely to end up in hospital anyway.