People refusing the vaccine why do defensive?

[fertilitybs]

I know a few people refusing the vaccine.

Whenever it comes up in conversation they her VERY argumentative, even though I haven't started any arguments and am actually quite respectful of peoples choice to not take it.

My question is, why are those not taking the vaccine getting so weird about it? If you're going to decide not to take it you should own your decisions.

Also people not taking it appear very entitled - want their cake and eat it. Still want to go nightclubs but still don't want the vaccine.

Can't have it both ways, you're also not being forced. I have no idea why people not taking the vaccine think this?

Anyway just a rant based on a recent disagreement with a family member.

Feel free to share your experience with me!

I utterly despair at the navel gazing going on here. It’s so fucking obvious that vaccination is what’s going to get us out of here and it says so much about how selfish people have become when they mouth off at the millions who have accepted that vaccination is sensible and start bleating about their right to do what they want with their own bodies. Fair enough but with any luck normal life will be closed down to those selfish enough not to have the vaccine (and I of course don’t mean those who are unable to have it).

Smoking in public spaces is not allowed in the majority of cases anymore. Before this rule, people didn't have a choice and had to inhale other people's smoke.
I think it's the same for the vaccines.

If you don't smoke you don't exhale any smoke particles. If you are fully vaccinated you may still catch the virus and exhale virus particles, even if less so that unvaccinated folk (and some of them, don't forget, have had Covid and so will also be far less likely to be exhaling viral particles as they have immunity too). So the smoking/non-smoking analogy isn't really that good.

As I see it, immunity to the virus is a spectrum and will depend on whether you've had Covid already and how your immune system responded to it, and/or whether you've been vaccinated, which vaccine you had, and crucially, how far apart your doses were, and how long ago. Thus in reality, everyone is different re their likely immune status. There's no black and white 'vaccinated and unvaccinated' in the case of anyone's immunity. That's why I don't think vaccine passports are the way to go. Fully vaccinated doesn't guarantee much, really, as you could be anywhere on that immunity spectrum. Testing would be a better alternative for large gatherings.

*even if less so THAN, not that.

@HildegardeCrowe

I utterly despair at the navel gazing going on here. It’s so fucking obvious that vaccination is what’s going to get us out of here and it says so much about how selfish people have become when they mouth off at the millions who have accepted that vaccination is sensible and start bleating about their right to do what they want with their own bodies. Fair enough but with any luck normal life will be closed down to those selfish enough not to have the vaccine (and I of course don’t mean those who are unable to have it).

Yes, vaccinating the groups most likely to end up in hospital, reducing their risk of serious illness has been very helpful. Vaccinating low risk people will not have the same impact at all. Vaccination does not completely prevent someone from contracting and transmitting the virus either.

It’s pretty horrifying that people think our basic liberties and access to everyday life should be ‘earned’ back by having a vaccine. We all gave them up quite willingly for over a year to protect people have now been protected by a vaccine. How dare you call people selfish because they haven’t made the same decision as you about having the vaccine that is primarily about reducing your own risk of illness, not protecting others.

As has been said @bumbleymummy - a person being vaccinated benefits you both directly and indirectly. Herd immunity via natural infection means taking the risk for yourself (which I appreciate you've already said you think is fine), but also other people.

When a person is vaccinated they are less likely to both be infected by the virus and transmit it. This gives you both individual level benefits (i.e., you're less likely to catch it from that person, less likely to be impacted by immune escape variants) and population level (i.e., reduced transmission will allow the reopening of society - you'll benefit from lockdown being lifted).

Your choice not to be vaccinated, but you seem very set on this idea a vaccination is for personal benefit only and your choice effects no one else.

‘Less likely’ is not a guarantee.

We were able to reopen because people who were most likely to be hospitalised have been vaccinated - their personal risk was reduced.

If you have been vaccinated, get on with your life and stop worrying about the vaccine status of others around you. If you don’t think your vaccine protects you enough then feel free to stay home.

@bumbleymummy

‘Less likely’ is not a guarantee.

We were able to reopen because people who were most likely to be hospitalised have been vaccinated - their personal risk was reduced.

If you have been vaccinated, get on with your life and stop worrying about the vaccine status of others around you. If you don’t think your vaccine protects you enough then feel free to stay home.

That is the way of medicine - drugs and vaccines don't reduce risk down to 0%. When you are looking at large numbers, a marked reduction in transmission from those who are vaccinated translates to a huge benefit population wise.

I'm half vaccinated and am not particularly concerned, on a personal level, about getting COVID. It's the population level consequences of getting to herd immunity via natural infection that are worrying.

I'm interested to know, if none of us got the vaccine like those who are currently refusing because we all decided to refuse it - would the they be happy to carry on lockdowns indefinitely or prefer the NHS to be overwhelmed? Genuine question

@fertilitybs

I'm interested to know, if none of us got the vaccine like those who are currently refusing because we all decided to refuse it - would the they be happy to carry on lockdowns indefinitely or prefer the NHS to be overwhelmed? Genuine question

Well this is the thing with vaccination programmes, when they work the benefits are basically "normality". Right now, we've vaccinated ~54% of the population and so the situation is far better than it would be without.

If you're someone who generally thinks COVID isn't a big deal and why get vaccinated, the fact that things are heading in the right direction now is going to provide you with ammo to avoid it.

@leafyygreens around 93% of over 16s have antibodies now according to the latest ONS report. That is from vaccination or infection. It doesn’t look like herd immunity will be possible due to the increased transmissibility of the delta variant and the fact the vaccinated people are still contracting and spreading it. That’s ok though, because the vaccines are reducing the individual risk for the most vulnerable groups. It does weaken the ‘greater good’ argument that has been pushed for the last few months though. If it turns out that immunity after natural infection is better than the vaccine then it will actually be a good thing that the younger, healthier population have natural immunity to keep transmission levels low while the vaccines reduce risk of serious illness in those that need it most.

I'm interested to know, if none of us got the vaccine like those who are currently refusing because we all decided to refuse it - would the they be happy to carry on lockdowns indefinitely or prefer the NHS to be overwhelmed? Genuine question

For starters, you will never have a situation where every human being makes the same decision, so it really is a hypothetical question. Because people's reasons for refusing vary, all the way from tin foil hat to solid medical reasons, that will determine the answer to your question. Tin foil hat people I would say would not want lockdowns (the govt trying to control us!) and would even doubt any claim that the NHS would be overwhelmed. They would say it's all lies, as some do not even believe Covid exists. In a way, their viewpoint is simpler, even if totally crazy and wrong.

For genuine medical reasons you may be only too glad of continued lockdowns, and naturally would not want to see the NHS collapse, but I imagine you'd suffer a lot of anxiety/stress and wouldn't want to see others unable to return to normal even if you couldn't.

Realistically, would lockdowns actually need to carry on forever if no-one was vaccinated? I can imagine people would still get infected, as sooner or later people would disobey lockdowns, or else they'd just be unsustainable. I think no matter which way you look at it, sooner or later we will all encounter this virus. Lockdowns just slow things down.

Probably because by the time they've got to you, they've had it in the neck 10 times already and can't be assed someone judging them again!

Pregnant and not vaccinating till after the baby! So fed up of the awful comments. Had an immunity test and have a degree of immunity

@xXOXOx

I'm not having the vaccine, I'm not defensive about it or entitled. Firstly I was planning on getting the vaccine after my pregnancy but now have decided against it altogether. It's definitely coercion not letting people into nightclubs etc, I don't believe young healthy people should need to take a vaccine that is in trials until 2023 when they don't know the long term effects. I'm fed up of people saying it's selfish, I think it's selfish expecting people to put stuff into their body when they don't know the long term side effects. I know people who have had severe headaches, constant periods, body has went numb on one side, ear infections and drs have just tried to palm it off as a coincidence when it certainly isn't.

This 👏🏼

@fertilitybs

I'm interested to know, if none of us got the vaccine like those who are currently refusing because we all decided to refuse it - would the they be happy to carry on lockdowns indefinitely or prefer the NHS to be overwhelmed? Genuine question

Yes, I still wouldn't take the vaccine.

@BridgetGetTheGin my question was which of e two would you prefer as there are no other options - lockdowns or overwhelmed nhs?

@BridgetGetTheGin

This is a really useful thread from an immunologist describing why effects that emerge >6 weeks are pretty much unheard of in vaccination:
twitter.com/AlastairMcA30/status/1395988677055029248

@fertilitybs

I'm interested to know, if none of us got the vaccine like those who are currently refusing because we all decided to refuse it - would the they be happy to carry on lockdowns indefinitely or prefer the NHS to be overwhelmed? Genuine question

It’s all about risk-benefit. People at high risk of complications from COVID are more likely to want and have the vaccine than low risk people. They are also the groups that are most likely to put pressure on the nhs by being hospitalised - that was why the JCVI prioritised them. So as long as they are vaccinated (and the uptake in these groups is very high) then we shouldn’t need lockdowns because the nhs won’t be overwhelmed - well, not by COvid inpatients anyway. They’re still struggling with backlogs and staff shortages.

[quote leafyygreens]@BridgetGetTheGin

This is a really useful thread from an immunologist describing why effects that emerge >6 weeks are pretty much unheard of in vaccination:
twitter.com/AlastairMcA30/status/1395988677055029248[/quote]
I've had Covid, I have antibodies, I'm definitely not putting my unborn child at risk of a vaccine that hasn't even been tested on pregnant women yet.

I'll wait another 2 months and even then, may wait till I've finished breastfeeding. I'll happily isolate. Don't plan to go clubbing anytime soon, if ever.

[quote fertilitybs]@BridgetGetTheGin my question was which of e two would you prefer as there are no other options - lockdowns or overwhelmed nhs?[/quote]
The NHS is mainly overwhelmed by the elderly who are all vaccinated now.

Not RTFT, just the first few pages but I get the gist.

I have a question for you OP.

So you're having a conversation with someone re vaccines. They explain they don't want the vaccine because xyz (if I was planning on more children I wouldn't have it as the effect on fertility is not clear, for example), would you then say 'ok, fair enough, your choice' or would you continue the same rhetoric as you are doing in this thread?

I think your answer on why people may be argumentative lies there.

[quote leafyygreens]@BridgetGetTheGin

This is a really useful thread from an immunologist describing why effects that emerge >6 weeks are pretty much unheard of in vaccination:
twitter.com/AlastairMcA30/status/1395988677055029248[/quote]
Hmmm… did you find that convincing? ADRs are under reported at the best of times. Do you really think it would be easy to have symptoms attributed to a vaccine they received weeks/months before?

Also, the risk of contracting and being seriously ill from COVID is incredibly low for young people so in some instances having the vaccine is higher risk. Even more so when they’re encouraging previously infected people to be vaccinated - they have immunity, they’ve suffered no ill effects from the virus but they’re being asked to take the risk of the vaccine anyway. Ridiculous.

@bumbleymummy yes I did hence why I posted it

I think you've missed the point somewhat

The mechanism by which vaccines work means there is little rationale for effects that emerge after >6 weeks. You are exposed to the antigen, your immune system degrades it and you mount a response.

This process of mounting a response is what can trigger adverse effects, which have been reported, but would not suddenly occur in a time period beyond that mark.

Really? So you’ve never heard of people suffering ill effects months/years after having a virus?

I'm bored of hearing anyone who voices genuine (educated and well reasoned) concern being called stupid, conspiracy theorist, selfish etc. This whole thing has truly bought out the worst of humanity and I am ashamed of the world I live in.

This. The world is changing, for the worse. Social division and discrimination being applauded by so many.

It’s pretty horrifying that people think our basic liberties and access to everyday life should be ‘earned’ back by having a vaccine. We all gave them up quite willingly for over a year to protect people have now been protected by a vaccine. How dare you call people selfish because they haven’t made the same decision as you about having the vaccine that is primarily about reducing your own risk of illness, not protecting others

Indeed. Well said.