People refusing the vaccine why do defensive?

[fertilitybs]

I know a few people refusing the vaccine.

Whenever it comes up in conversation they her VERY argumentative, even though I haven't started any arguments and am actually quite respectful of peoples choice to not take it.

My question is, why are those not taking the vaccine getting so weird about it? If you're going to decide not to take it you should own your decisions.

Also people not taking it appear very entitled - want their cake and eat it. Still want to go nightclubs but still don't want the vaccine.

Can't have it both ways, you're also not being forced. I have no idea why people not taking the vaccine think this?

Anyway just a rant based on a recent disagreement with a family member.

Feel free to share your experience with me!

@bumbleymummy

Really? So you’ve never heard of people suffering ill effects months/years after having a virus?

Viruses =/= vaccines. Viruses can remain in the body, continuing to cause damage after first infection so isn't really a valid comparison.

I think you are confused about long term effects, rather than something that can emerge a long time period after vaccination, which is the key distinction. Of course if someone had a CVST after the AZ vaccine, the effects of this could be long term. But you would not expect someone to suddenly develop a CVST 6 months after vaccination.

This is more of a concern for drugs and other therapeutics - if you are taking new drug daily, of course there are concerns that even though patients were fine after a year of taking the new medication, side effects may emerge on a longer time scale. We are not vaccinating people daily for 2 years, hence why it is not comparable.

ADRs are under reported at the best of times. Do you really think it would be easy to have symptoms attributed to a vaccine they received weeks/months before?

This, absolutely this.

This was a huge concern of mine way before COVID. My experience over the years has been that if you ever mention anything to a doctor querying whether a health problem or symptom that has arisen soon after vaccine could be related, you are shot down immediately - pooh-poohed and dismissed out of hand without any consideration that it might be possible. if anything, there's a slightly panicked rush to shut you down and make sure you are not questioning a vaccine at all, as if it''s some sort of sacred cow that must never ever be criticised. It's certainly not considered with any degree of openness, curiosity or thinking that perhaps what's in the leaflet might not be gospel and that new side effects previously unknown are possible.

The amount of yellow cards put in for any vaccine has to be way under representative of actual side effects, as it's the devil's own job to get a doctor to even consider submitting one. Prior to Covid it wasn't advertised that patients could themselves put one in.

If symptoms arose weeks or months after a vaccine (as could be the case with auto-immune problems, some of which can come on quite gradually after being triggered) it would NEVER be linked to a vaccine - the yellow card just would not go in. Even if a patient pushed for recognition, who actually thinks they'd be taken seriously?

Exactly this

(Previous quote fail)
This!

People who refuse to be vaccinated are effectively siding with the virus. They are providing hosts for it to replicate in and transfer to other bodies, and they are providing opportunities for an even worse variant to appear. Plus gambling with their own health.

Dr Samantha Batt-Rawden, senior intensive care registrar, said the patients they were seeing were “getting younger and younger”.

“The vast majority of those requiring intensive care are unvaccinated: some of them will die. It is heartbreaking for us as NHS staff to watch people suffer unnecessarily knowing that this almost certainly could have been prevented by the vaccine,” she said.

“We are seeing patients in their 30s, or even in their 20s, who are fit and have no other medical problems on ICUs [intensive care units]. As an ICU doctor I am begging you to have the vaccine. Please don’t let not having the jab become the biggest mistake of your life.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/25/seriously-ill-young-people-in-current-covid-admissions-expert-warns

@CrunchyCarrot
"If you don't smoke you don't exhale any smoke particles. If you are fully vaccinated you may still catch the virus and exhale virus particles, even if less so that unvaccinated folk (and some of them, don't forget, have had Covid and so will also be far less likely to be exhaling viral particles as they have immunity too). So the smoking/non-smoking analogy isn't really that good."
That's why it's a good analogy. Smokers don't exhale smoke, unless they are smoking. If they are, then they are not allowed in public places.

I'm really tired of this discussion because I don't think I'll ever get through to any of the people that don't want the vaccine, and I wonder why. We are in a real emergency. I would like things to go back to normal magically too, but they won't. The virus will keep circulating at high levels thanks to unvaccinated people, and that will cause new mutations that eventually will make the vaccines we have useless. Then there will be even more death and more economic disasters, and the hospitals will continue to be too full to cope with normal diseases. And eventually there will be a new vaccine for the new variant, and the ones rolling up our sleeves will be the same than this time, while the antivaxers will continue to puff out their chest about their birthright to ignore reality while calling us sheep for trying to stop this pandemic.
I despair.

I don't think that many people who are declining the vaccine are antivaxxers. Some, yes. But not many. I also haven't come across any chest puffers, or any decriers of the vaccinated as 'sheeple'. The opposite. Most people I know who have declined the vaccine thus far are saying nothing, or speaking in whispered tones, and keeping their heads down for fear of discrimination and attacks...

@berrylands

while the antivaxers will continue to puff out their chest about their birthright to ignore reality while calling us sheep for trying to stop this pandemic

Have you any conclusive answers to the questions raised by the vaccine hesitant on this thread? Or can you provide any links? If you want to convince people, you need a better argument than reminding them that there's a deadly virus. Nobody here is denying that, and nobody here has mentioned any of the 'anti vax' rhetoric. Not everyone who is currently refusing the vaccine is chest puffing or denying reality. Nobody has called anybody a sheep.

[quote berrylands]@CrunchyCarrot
"If you don't smoke you don't exhale any smoke particles. If you are fully vaccinated you may still catch the virus and exhale virus particles, even if less so that unvaccinated folk (and some of them, don't forget, have had Covid and so will also be far less likely to be exhaling viral particles as they have immunity too). So the smoking/non-smoking analogy isn't really that good."
That's why it's a good analogy. Smokers don't exhale smoke, unless they are smoking. If they are, then they are not allowed in public places.

I'm really tired of this discussion because I don't think I'll ever get through to any of the people that don't want the vaccine, and I wonder why. We are in a real emergency. I would like things to go back to normal magically too, but they won't. The virus will keep circulating at high levels thanks to unvaccinated people, and that will cause new mutations that eventually will make the vaccines we have useless. Then there will be even more death and more economic disasters, and the hospitals will continue to be too full to cope with normal diseases. And eventually there will be a new vaccine for the new variant, and the ones rolling up our sleeves will be the same than this time, while the antivaxers will continue to puff out their chest about their birthright to ignore reality while calling us sheep for trying to stop this pandemic.
I despair.[/quote]
No one is expecting things to go back to normal ‘magically’. That’s why we’ve prioritised vaccinating the groups most likely to be hospitalised. A lot of the unvaccinated that you’re talking about are children who can’t be/ aren’t going to be vaccinated. There are millions of unvaccinated people in the world where mutations can arise. I’m really not sure why some people keep overlooking this in the whole ‘you’re going to cause mutations’ narrative. Yes, the virus will keep circulating in vaccinated and unvaccinated people because the delta strain is more contagious and is able to infect double vaccinated people. At least the vaccine is preventing serious illness in the groups that were most likely to end up in hospital. You also seem to be forgetting that infection also confers immunity so all the cases we’re currently seeing are also reducing the numbers of susceptible people. If it turns out that natural acquired immunity is more protective/more broadly protective then it will be a very good thing that we have a certain proportion of the population with that immunity to help protect those who need the vaccine to reduce their risk.

That's why it's a good analogy. Smokers don't exhale smoke, unless they are smoking. If they are, then they are not allowed in public places.

It really isn't. Vaccinated people can still catch the virus and transmit it. Yes, at a lower rate but it still happens. Look at Sajid Javid. He could have gone to a nightclub with proof of being double-vaxxed. But he still was incubating Covid and could have spread it to others. If you have the Delta variant you become infectious on average 2 days earlier than with the Alpha variant. I was listening to a virology video yesterday and by the time you have a positive PCR test result you are already very infectious and spreading it to others, if you're not isolating.

If you are unvaccinated through choice, then you are more likely to be symptomatic and shedding virus onto other people, who may or may not be vaccinated. You are making it more life more risky for people who can't be vaccinated, or who even are vaccinated. It's a fundamentally selfish decision, there is nothing wrong with someone judging you for that. People judge people for selfish actions all the time.

@milkyaqua er no they aren't siding with virus because you have an immune system that for as long as you have been alive that comes into contact with all sorts of viruses and you fight it off and produce antibodies and t cell immunity . This vaccine benefits many elderly and vulnerable people but those not having it and not providing bodies for new varients .

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot

If you are unvaccinated through choice, then you are more likely to be symptomatic and shedding virus onto other people, who may or may not be vaccinated. You are making it more life more risky for people who can't be vaccinated, or who even are vaccinated. It's a fundamentally selfish decision, there is nothing wrong with someone judging you for that. People judge people for selfish actions all the time.

As opposed to unvaccinated because you can’t be eg children? Are they less likely to be ‘shedding virus’? What about the vaccinated people who are ‘shedding virus’ on to people who can’t be vaccinated? Is that ok?

I think it’s selfish that vaccinated people are willingly going along with the vaccine passports idea and taking advantage of not having to test/isolate when they know they can still contract and pass the virus on.

I was paraphrasing a Nobel-Prize winner, actually. He put it more eloquently. But he definitely said the unvaccinated were siding with the virus.

This guy: Peter Doherty shared the 1996 Nobel Medicine Prize with Swiss colleague Rolf Zinkernagel, for their discoveries about transplantation and “killer” T cell-mediated immunity, an understanding that is currently translating into new cancer treatments.

I think he knows a thing or two about the immune system.

And even he has no evidence for long term side effects.

MN is amazing. Truly the only internet forum I am on where people argue that those who take the vaccine are selfish. And I am on a lot of forums!

@milkyaqua

I was paraphrasing a Nobel-Prize winner, actually. He put it more eloquently. But he definitely said the unvaccinated were siding with the virus.

This guy: Peter Doherty shared the 1996 Nobel Medicine Prize with Swiss colleague Rolf Zinkernagel, for their discoveries about transplantation and “killer” T cell-mediated immunity, an understanding that is currently translating into new cancer treatments.

I think he knows a thing or two about the immune system.

I'm sure he does and I should have been clearer that you were quoting but you can Google and find many other immunologist who don't agree with his opinion that's the whole problem with the vaccine debate it's opinions clashing and unfortunately media , social media and government are on the get vaccinated side so people on the other side must be wrong which isn't true .

@tedsletterofthelaw

Not RTFT, just the first few pages but I get the gist.

I have a question for you OP.

So you're having a conversation with someone re vaccines. They explain they don't want the vaccine because xyz (if I was planning on more children I wouldn't have it as the effect on fertility is not clear, for example), would you then say 'ok, fair enough, your choice' or would you continue the same rhetoric as you are doing in this thread?

I think your answer on why people may be argumentative lies there.

This. Anytime anyone on MN says they are not getting the vaccine, it is met with constant questioning, and/or a tirade of abuse and name calling. No one goes "fair enough, I hope you keep well".

@MareofBeasttown

MN is amazing. Truly the only internet forum I am on where people argue that those who take the vaccine are selfish. And I am on a lot of forums!

Is this a reference to my post? If you read it again you’ll find that I think going along with vaccine passport exemptions when they know they can still contract and spread the virus is what is selfish.

Oh yes, I got your meaning. Previous posts include you arguing that you will not take the vaccine so people in India will get it. We will have to disagree on everything.

I hope everyone keeps well actually, and gets access to whatever medical treatment they need.

You mean arguing that we shouldn’t be prioritising vaccination for young, healthy people here over healthcare workers and vulnerable people in developing countries? The WHO actually argued that as well so I guess I’m in good company on that.

@bumbleymummy

You mean arguing that we shouldn’t be prioritising vaccination for young, healthy people here over healthcare workers and vulnerable people in developing countries? The WHO actually argued that as well so I guess I’m in good company on that.

@bumbleymummy

little disingenuous

you have said extensively that non-vulnerable people should not be having the vaccine, and that in fact anyone taking it up is selfish and it should be donated to a vulnerable person in need in another country.

It was explained quite thoroughly on the previous thread that you refusing the vaccine and donating it to "someone in India" (your words) would not be helpful, and far better for countries to look into how they can support others in their vaccination roll out - helping organise the infrastructure, cold chain, large vaccination centres etc. The house on fire analogy in that thread was relevant.

[quote TheFoundations]@berrylands

while the antivaxers will continue to puff out their chest about their birthright to ignore reality while calling us sheep for trying to stop this pandemic

Have you any conclusive answers to the questions raised by the vaccine hesitant on this thread? Or can you provide any links? If you want to convince people, you need a better argument than reminding them that there's a deadly virus. Nobody here is denying that, and nobody here has mentioned any of the 'anti vax' rhetoric. Not everyone who is currently refusing the vaccine is chest puffing or denying reality. Nobody has called anybody a sheep.[/quote]
The answers to the antivaxers concerns are repeated again and again, but it doesn't change anybody's mind.
They must think biology is something that one can learn from a leaflet, because it doesn't matter how many immunologists, doctors, virologists or epidemiologists tell them we need to get the vaccine fast. The antivaxers have done "their own research " and nothing will convince them.
www.cnn.com/2021/07/19/health/covid-vaccine-myths-debunked/index.html

They must think biology is something that one can learn from a leaflet

Yep, that bloke I mentioned earlier actually discovered the role of T cells in the immune system through his research, and co-won the Nobel Prize for his work.

I would listen to him over, say, Andrew Wakefield...

@milkyaqua

They must think biology is something that one can learn from a leaflet

Yep, that bloke I mentioned earlier actually discovered the role of T cells in the immune system through his research, and co-won the Nobel Prize for his work.

I would listen to him over, say, Andrew Wakefield...

Exactly