So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

[OneKookyShark]

I have read multiple posts both on here and on the CITME forum- and I am aware how toxic the debate is.

But surely when Legitimate and highly respected international NGO talks of ‘orchestrated killing and dehuminisation”, then it starts to become utterly undeniable?

I am sure someone will be along to tell me otherwise. I also note that Netenyahu has ordered a full occupation of Gaza city today.

“Médecins Sans Frontières calls for immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
The medical NGO Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has called for the immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), the US- and Israeli-backed aid organisation operating in Gaza, describing GHF-run food distribution sites in Gaza as having become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”.
In a social media post on Thursday, MSF wrote:
“In MSF’s nearly 54 years of operations, rarely have we seen such levels of systematic violence against unarmed civilians.”
The GHF-run food distributions in Gaza, Palestine, have become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”, not humanitarian aid.
In a new report, MSF analysed medical data, patients’ testimonies and first-hand medical witnesses at two MSF clinics in Gaza and found that it “point[ed] to both targeted and indiscriminate violence by Israeli forces and private American contractors against starved Palestinians” at food distribution sites run by the GHF”

There is room for improvement at MSF … not wrong for it to be mentioned.

Make the same distinction for Israeli hostages, Israeli people and Government.

And IMO the attacks on 7 Oct, babies, elderly, civilians …. Was 100% genocidal & racist

Thank you for replying. Any justifiable means? That's a convenient misinterpretation of self-dermination; a desire to live safely. There are different strands to Zionism, which you do recognise. The promised land or ancestral home is a crucial part of the Zionist movement, and one which many many people - normally those, who march every Saturday - are ignorant of. What's also forgotten is the expulsion of Jews, from Jerusalem, where Jews were dispersed to different areas. Wouldn't you want a Jewish state, where you could live together and in peace? They aren't allowed to do that though. Most notably because of the biggest threat, culminating in 7/10. The misinformation around illegal settlements, has gathered speed, as has the idea that all Jews are Zionists.

Interesting. I don’t agree with the occupation plan but I don’t know what else is an alternative at the moment. I do agree with a 2 state solution but also that Hamas must be removed for that to even be considered - potentially with whole new Palestinian governance - but they must be allowed self determination- just not with Hamas.

Agreed.

Brings to mind the post 1950 explosion of Jews from Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Morocco, and Lebanon. The view of leadership in these countries was … send them to Israel. Jews lost land, property in these countries as view was - they have Israel now … send them there.

The group was accused of racism in 2020, in its hiring and promotion of staff. Surprised many missed it, as it was reported in the Guardian - the left's bible.

I feel like you're the one, here, who is conflating a wider range of Zionist positions with the more extreme manifestations of it that I was referencing.

Edit: though I do understand why one might feel defensive, given how widely the term Zionist is misused, particularly in the UK.

And this

https://ngo-monitor.org/reports/doctors-without-borders-systematically-ignoring-israeli-victims-and-hamas-terror/

realise as well, “reports” from NGOs are also viewed as fundraising “opportunities”. They’re always looking for money … so always bad news and controversy & upset. Specifically - children. That’s what gets donations. Fundraising u

The most persecuted ethnoreligious group, and the west has joined in on the witch hunt.

Admirable as their work is, I apply the same sprinkling of salt to their words, as I do the UN's.

NGO Monitor is hardly an unbiased source. It's a right-wing organisation based in Jerusalem.

It has has been criticized by academic figures, diplomats, and journalists for allowing its research and conclusions to be driven by politics, for not examining right-wing NGOs, and for spreading misinformation.

But as discussed earlier in the thread, a lot of people just have an issue with the Israeli government and the impact of its military decisions/tactics and absolutely no issue with Jewish people generally (because they are a group of individuals who have individual views about the conflict - they can’t just be lumped together).

I understand that lots of people sadly use it as a very thin veil for antisemitism, just as people who lump Hamas and Palestinians into the same group may be Islamophobic. I think it’s important to note though that anyone can and should question Israel’s impact on Palestinian people without it automatically being an antisemitic ‘witch hunt’.

I agree with most of what you've said. I say witch hunt because of the sea of misinformation that you have to wade through. A lot of what I've witnessed is nothing but bullying tactics from ignorant brainwashed people. Jewish people are in between a rock and a hard place because Palestinians are considered the underdogs. They are, in one respect but most of the oppression is at the hands of their own people - that's not just Hamas but the discarding of the value of their lives, by other Arab states You can't talk about it without being labelled racist. There is much more to this conflict.

Wtf has it got to do with Poland? Why is it that when Israel is involved everyone has to reach for a Hitler metaphor? Agree it's fucking nuts what he's planning but come on., you don't need to reach for that.

Yes - good old technology certainly makes it harder to find the truth as so much sh*t is swirling around. I’m sorry that you’ve witnessed a lot of bullying - I don’t understand why people feel the need to drag so many innocent people into this conflict.

I think blaming other Arab states usually relates to them not taking in Palestinian people - is that what you are referring to? I know they have helped with medical care and aid but I can understand their hesitance to open passage to Palestinians. Firstly, I think it would be hard to ensure members of Hamas weren’t also leaving which would not only protect Hamas but also cause issues if another attack was planned from inside a neighbouring state. I also question whether it’s right that the people in Gaza should abandon that area and potentially never be able to return.

I assume she means the loopy US evangelical end-of-days Zionists. Rather than Israelis.

I'm on holiday so only have access to Sky News but the things MSF are saying is even more horrific than previous reports. Surely no one doubts MSF credentials?

Who are the loopy ones? Are they a religion? I’m not familiar with that group,

Doubt everyone … msf …. They were in the hospitals that were sheltering Hamas. Could not possibly verify what they say 100% accurate - who would be checking them? Verifying their neutrality?

I suspect you are aware of this, but on the off chance you aren’t: There are fringe US evangelical Christians who believe that it is vital that all Jews return to Israel in order to bring about the Apocalypse/Rapture.

The loopiness is my own judgement - many of these Christians are loopy by mainstream Christian standards, believing in the Rapture etc (and also quite antisemitic, ironically, because the step after Jews returning en masse to Israel is Jesus’s second coming and everyone including all Jewish people immediately converting to Christianity).

So, in your view it would be ok to say Loopy Muslims …. Because of their beliefs ? Loopy Gaza Muslims loopy to think “river to sea” ?!?

I thought your earlier question was probably disingenuous.

To me, “loopy” implies a level of harmlessness, and the more extremist Muslim viewpoints (Daesh etc) are not harmless. But if you think they are loopy, I’d have no issue whatsoever with you saying that, no.

Is “from the River to the Sea” a religious belief? I thought it was a nationalist slogan.

Yes doubt everyone especially the IDF, Israeli government and their propaganda machine. It’s not a one way street- yes Hamas are terrible and a terrorist group. But Israel currently has a far right extremist government using its military machine to destroy a civilian population.

It absolutely works both ways I’m afraid!!