So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

[OneKookyShark]

I have read multiple posts both on here and on the CITME forum- and I am aware how toxic the debate is.

But surely when Legitimate and highly respected international NGO talks of ‘orchestrated killing and dehuminisation”, then it starts to become utterly undeniable?

I am sure someone will be along to tell me otherwise. I also note that Netenyahu has ordered a full occupation of Gaza city today.

“Médecins Sans Frontières calls for immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
The medical NGO Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has called for the immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), the US- and Israeli-backed aid organisation operating in Gaza, describing GHF-run food distribution sites in Gaza as having become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”.
In a social media post on Thursday, MSF wrote:
“In MSF’s nearly 54 years of operations, rarely have we seen such levels of systematic violence against unarmed civilians.”
The GHF-run food distributions in Gaza, Palestine, have become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”, not humanitarian aid.
In a new report, MSF analysed medical data, patients’ testimonies and first-hand medical witnesses at two MSF clinics in Gaza and found that it “point[ed] to both targeted and indiscriminate violence by Israeli forces and private American contractors against starved Palestinians” at food distribution sites run by the GHF”

People may have been questioned about supporting Hamas but Boris's comment implied people thought he could be an actual Hamas terrorist.

I'm not personally offended though others may have been. He made worse comments yesterday in my opinion (that got deleted).

Forgot to add @PinkBobby but yes, agree let's get back to the main point of the thread.

Agreed.

There are a range of reasons comments are deleted.

Back to the actual point of the thread…

People are dying because of Hamas.

Speaking of repetition. This has been debated to death on numerous threads for weeks, so apologies if my reply is also repetitive.

Hamas has repeatedly accepted ceasefire proposals, yet Israel is moving forward aggressively: they’ve called up 60,000 army reservists to launch a ground invasion of Gaza City. This puts over a million Palestinians at immediate risk of death and displacement.

Framing it as “people are dying because of Hamas” ignores the ongoing military escalation and the humanitarian crisis caused by the invasion.

So Hamas can start a war then Israel are at fault for not ending it when Hamas says so?

So you believe Israel are absolved of any responsibility for any civilian deaths or the malnutrition and starvation of civilians because of Hamas?

no alternative???? how about just feeding them ans supplying them with the basics first, stop deliberately targeting kids who are clearly not hamas fighters but will almost certainly grow up to be if they survive..

Where to begin - I fact, I don't think I will bother.

Very true.

Yes other Arab nations all shut their borders. Where is the condemnation of Egypt closing its borders to the desparate Palestine people wanting to leave a war zone? Think of the millions leaving Ukraine into Poland - can’ you imagine the condemn nation of Poland if they shut the border? There would be outrage!

I am fed up with the constant blame at Israel’s door.
Israel are at war, and people die and suffer terribly. Wars are horrible that’s why they shouldn’t be started.

I hope that Israel will fulfil their aims of taking control of the region and bringing stability to the Palestian people- they have all been utterly used, abused and indoctrinated by the disgusting barabarism of the Hamas regime.

Our future safety in the West relies on Israel having the right to exist and defend itself and it is the ONLY Jewish state as opposed to dozens of Muslim states in the world.

Other Arab states aren’t the ones bombing Gaza- Israel is. Egypt can’t just “open Rafah”; Israel controls the border and has hit it repeatedly. Under international law, it’s the occupying power (Israel) that’s responsible for civilians’ safety and aid.

And wars don’t excuse war crimes: targeting civilians, starving a population, flattening hospitals and schools are illegal regardless of Hamas. “Bringing stability” by destroying Gaza and killing tens of thousands of children isn’t liberation, it’s collective punishment.

Israel has the right to exist, but Palestinians have the right to exist too.

Well said.

Exactly- Israel can’t just point at Hamas and wash their hands of responsibility.

Civilian starvation and mass killings aren’t excused under international law, and that’s why these actions are being investigated as war crimes.

International law says that armed forces need to be identifiable and differentiated from civilians. How come Israel is expected to follow international law but Palestine is exempt?

No one is saying Palestine is exempt?

What Hamas did on October 7 was horrific, but it doesn’t justify bombing, starving, and collectively punishing over 2 million civilians, including 1.1 million children. International law still applies to all parties.

Almost half of all Palestinians are children. You appear to believe murdering children is justified. Are we to kill everybody with an opinion we don't like, including their offspring? Shame on you.

Hamas (if that’s what you mean by Palestine) aren’t exempt. Their horrendous acts on 7/10 have been condemned, their leaders accused of war crimes (like Netanyahu). They are being held to the same standards. But they are also a terrorist organisation so the fact they repeatedly fail to meet those standards isn’t so much of a shock to people as a western democracy doing it. We should expect more from western democracies than terrorist groups.

Israel go above and beyond to be a ‘better’ military with regard to war crimes for the simple fact they are held to a higher standard.

’All’ militaries have been found to have commited ‘war crimes’ it is a very sad fact that in the military there are some bad actors but that doesn’t condemn a whole military.

Military analysts have corroborated IDF infringements and they will be investigated. I can’t say the same for Hamas using home made weapons that are a huge danger to their own population and have killed their own.

sadly there is a generation of people who have been completely brain washed by the Hamas propaganda machine, iwhile you sit 1000’s of mile away in the comfort of your home being warriors on your keyboards. Your framing of this conflict undermines the complexity of fighting an urban war with the opposition not playing by the rules.

i will wait patiently for the war crimes investigations in the aftermath and I know I will be on the right side of history.

’In war the first casualty is the truth’ Aeschylus

I truly hope you’re ready for the cognitive dissonance that hits you when the truth comes out- because patterns of targeting civilians, starving children, and bombing hospitals aren’t going to be explained away as ‘complex urban warfare.

How are Israel supposed to target Hamas forces when they refuse to identify themselves and hid amongst civilians?

Approximately 70% of the fatalities in Gaza are women and children.

The problem is the scale and consistency. Whole displacement camps, schools, hospitals, and aid convoys are repeatedly bombed- this isn’t incidental, it’s a pattern. International bodies recognise civilians are being deliberately targeted or collectively punished. Saying they’re just targeting Hamas ignores the evidence.

I literally just posted on another thread:
Children have also been targeted. Repeatedly and systematically, and we have the evidence.

There would have been no logical reason for the IDF to target Amna al-Mufti, an 11-year-old Palestinian girl- yet she was targeted and killed by one of their drones. And this is not an isolated case. There have been multiple instances of children being killed just queuing for water alone.

When it’s a few children then maybe it could be attributed to an error? But when children have been disproportionately affected, it raises serious concerns.
In TWO YEARS, Palestinian children account for 30% of the death toll (so far). A rough comparison:
Syria 2011-23 5-6%
Yemen 2015-2023 10-15%
Iraq 2003-2011 9%

Why has baby formula been withheld from entering? Combined with statements from Israeli leaders and officials, a disturbing pattern emerges.

The IDF also supervise settler violence so they are not beyond criticism in my eyes. That’s violence condoned by the state. That alone should open your eyes to the reality of the relationship between the Israeli government and Palestinian people. As you say, there are bad actors in all militaries (and more generally in positions of power) - perhaps these are the ones @Wedonttalkaboutboris refers to. Just because all militaries do it, doesn’t mean we should turn a blind eye and not be outraged when children are killed or displaced or starving.

What you call brain washing, I see as critical thinking based on a lot of evidence, including what Israel itself is saying about Gaza and its people. If you feel comfortable ignoring or disregarding a lot of evidence re Israel’s role in this war, fine. That’s up to you. Ultimately, dehumanising Palestinians and dismissing the scale of their loss (family members, health and homes) as part of war actually feeds into the spread of terrorism. Displaced angry people are vulnerable to radicalisation. If Israel want to live in peace, they have to be involved in breaking any cycle of terrorism.

You say you’re confident about being on the right side of history. We’ll both have to see how this all ends. But in the mean time, criticising or questioning the actions of a state and its military because you’re not happy about children dying/being injured/starving/being traumatised, to me, is always ‘being on the right side of history’.

Have Israel EVER been convicted of war crimes? Chat GPT is your friend here. There seems to be in the last 100 years over 400 people CONVICTED of war crimes - let me know if you find Israel on that list.

It also seems the vast majority of these convictions are against non state actors ie Terrorists. Including slaughtering their people in honour of a ‘death cult’ ideology.