So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

[OneKookyShark]

I have read multiple posts both on here and on the CITME forum- and I am aware how toxic the debate is.

But surely when Legitimate and highly respected international NGO talks of ‘orchestrated killing and dehuminisation”, then it starts to become utterly undeniable?

I am sure someone will be along to tell me otherwise. I also note that Netenyahu has ordered a full occupation of Gaza city today.

“Médecins Sans Frontières calls for immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
The medical NGO Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has called for the immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), the US- and Israeli-backed aid organisation operating in Gaza, describing GHF-run food distribution sites in Gaza as having become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”.
In a social media post on Thursday, MSF wrote:
“In MSF’s nearly 54 years of operations, rarely have we seen such levels of systematic violence against unarmed civilians.”
The GHF-run food distributions in Gaza, Palestine, have become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”, not humanitarian aid.
In a new report, MSF analysed medical data, patients’ testimonies and first-hand medical witnesses at two MSF clinics in Gaza and found that it “point[ed] to both targeted and indiscriminate violence by Israeli forces and private American contractors against starved Palestinians” at food distribution sites run by the GHF”

If anyone is ‘interested’ in this type of stuff more broadly, you should read The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klien. It talks about how capitalism thrives after tragedies and how there are people who will make a lot of money in the aftermath of this war. Spoiler alert, it won’t be Palestinians.

She also wrote this interesting article. Sorry @Dangermoo it’s also from the Guardian. I must admit, I read it because it’s by her not because it’s my paper of choice. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/05/israel-gaza-october-7-memorials

I can’t find it- can you link to it? I will comment too

Is Israel destroyed? No. If Israel were completely destroyed by Hamas, how would you feel if i said 'well did Israel want Gaza to remain intact?'

What buildings ARE Hamas hiding in?

You think unbiased journalists would be allowed to wander about without Hamas! I can just see now the vile uniforms coming off and om pops the cilivan clothing.

Must have been hiding in all of these ones.

Israel has the means to completely destroy Palestine and kill everyone there. Hamas has the means to commit horrific terrorist acts but does not have the means to completely destroy Israel. It's an uneven contest.

So why did Palestine attack Israel?

So why did Palestine Hamas attack Israel?

(Fixed that for you)

It's Israel that is guarding the borders and the Israeli Government that is refusing access to international journalists, not Hamas. Your response to every question about Israel's conduct is 'but Hamas ...' but this doesn't wash any more.

Hamas attacked Israel because they are terrorists. Sadly they are also the government in Gaza after seizing power in ‘07.

There are terrorists in the UK too. When the bombings happened in London in 05, we didn’t flatten Leeds (where the attackers were from) in case everyone was a terrorist there.

This is such a bad analogy I’m actually speechless.

They didn't seize power. They were voted in on a policy of antisemitism, extremely conservative Islam, and violence against Israel. They were very clear about what they stood for.

And liberating Palestine from Israel Occupation.

Obviously the situations are very different - it wasn’t an actual comparison - but it’s important to stop blurring the lines between Hamas and innocent people. Hamas’s existence doesn’t mean Israel can get away with doing what ever they want in Gaza.

Liberating Palestine by violent means.

Please don't try to defend Hamas.

They won a small majority (and didn’t win a majority in any district) and were meant to lead with the more moderate Fatah party but, being terrorists, they killed members and drove the rest out. They seized control and haven’t held elections since.

Liberating all of the former British Mandate for Palestine of Jews entirely. And by violent means.

Shouldn't more people be calling for them to be removed in that case?

Their role in triggering this war often seems to be overlooked or minimised.

They received more votes than Fatah.
They were explicit in their aims and what they stood for.

In my opinion, saying they 'seized power' is yet more infantilization of Palestinians. A good proportion of them voted for Hamas. Call a spade a spade.

How is that defending Hamas? I never said it was right or wrong.

It's a fact. At the time Palestine was denied full self governance as Israel regarded it as a hostile entity. They could also use Israeli military to suppress resistance to their control. Hamas wanted to be that resistance and as we know this is through violent means .

The reasons @dairydebris mentioned were true but this is also one .

Exactly.

It all comes down to collective punishment- illegal under the Geneva conventions. The 1 million children in Gaza didn’t vote for Hamas and are not responsible for their actions. Collective punishment - or punishing an entire population for the actions of a minority group- is illegal under international law.

But it still doesn’t justify the collective punishment of the 1 million kids that live in Gaza.

Do you mean by people in Gaza? I think asking people in Gaza to be outspoken about Hamas is pretty unfair - would you speak out if violent terrorists could just find you and kill you?

You say Israel regarded Palestine as a hostile entity. But this election took place after the second intifada, with all its suicide bombings and retaliatory strikes by Israel. So wouldn't it be fairer to say that Palestine was indeed a hostile entity to Israel, and vice versa?

The way you say it again makes Palestinians helpless victims of situations bought about by Israel. Again, its not the case.

Full self governance to a nation of people keen to wipe you from the land doesnt sound like a great idea to me?