So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

[OneKookyShark]

I have read multiple posts both on here and on the CITME forum- and I am aware how toxic the debate is.

But surely when Legitimate and highly respected international NGO talks of ‘orchestrated killing and dehuminisation”, then it starts to become utterly undeniable?

I am sure someone will be along to tell me otherwise. I also note that Netenyahu has ordered a full occupation of Gaza city today.

“Médecins Sans Frontières calls for immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
The medical NGO Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has called for the immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), the US- and Israeli-backed aid organisation operating in Gaza, describing GHF-run food distribution sites in Gaza as having become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”.
In a social media post on Thursday, MSF wrote:
“In MSF’s nearly 54 years of operations, rarely have we seen such levels of systematic violence against unarmed civilians.”
The GHF-run food distributions in Gaza, Palestine, have become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”, not humanitarian aid.
In a new report, MSF analysed medical data, patients’ testimonies and first-hand medical witnesses at two MSF clinics in Gaza and found that it “point[ed] to both targeted and indiscriminate violence by Israeli forces and private American contractors against starved Palestinians” at food distribution sites run by the GHF”

Apparently they do because the IDF despite not knowing their identities even after their deaths were able to kill more than 13000 terrorists on sight according to posters here so there must be something that is distinguishing them from civillians.

Convictions aren’t the point. Israel is under ICC investigation for war crimes, including bombing hospitals, starving civilians, and targeting children. Historical stats about non-state actors don’t change that. UN, ICJ, HRW, and Amnesty all document systematic harm to civilians. “No convictions yet” doesn’t erase the evidence.

It’s not discrimination, it’s called being considerate. It’s recognising that these topics are triggering for people who have fled war zones, or other distressing circumstances.

Probably the fact they are attacking the IDF, I imagine that’s a big hint.

Agreed.

‘Convictions aren’t the point…’

Good grief! in the past 100 years of a horrible brutal contentious war and no convictions against Israel and yet there are 400 other cases convicted through the international courts.
it seems that between 10.000 - 12,000 people were convicted of war crimes during the second world war to give context - in a 6 year period.

Convictions aren’t the point … unless they are convictions against Israel.

You're delusional if you think 'Israel go above and beyond to be a better military with regard to war crimes' is true. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r1xl5wgnko

But Ukraine isn't triggering for those same people? Really??
Discussing Trump isn't triggering? Discussing abortion isn't triggering? Discussing domestic violence or abuse isn't triggering? All the British people flying Ukraine flags everywhere aren't triggering for Russians?

So much bollocks. We are helping to support a genocide according to the UN, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, MSF, B'Tselem, Physicians for Human Rights Israel. Not 'just my opinion' but an overwhelming consensus of expert opinion and evidence. We are helping Israel create a famine in Gaza and starve children to death - according to the UN, Oxfam, DEC, WFP, MSF, etc etc. We absolutely should be triggered.

What are you actually on about?
if an individual murdered someone - they wouldn’t be let off because they hadn’t had any prior convictions. The fact Israel hasn’t yet been convicted doesn’t erase the evidence or the investigations into systematic harm to civilians.

What nonsense. Investigations, documentation, and evidence of systematic harm matter whether or not a verdict has been reached yet.

‘Accused’ Yes you are correct.
As it appears, having delved deeper, they have been ‘accused’ over quite a few decades with no convictions.
Are you questioning the ICC legal system and its effectiveness when others have been successful charged through the exact same system - how do you explain this?

I honestly dont know what we are doing here. In all the multiple threads i have read the amount of common ground gained in understanding or empathy or acknowledgement between pro-Palestinian and pro-Israelis is zero. I think it would be far better and more valuable to all our time to have 2 CITMEs or clearly identifyable threads. There is absolutely no point in continuing to discuss with each other in my point.

Doesn't the ICC have arrest warrants out for Netanyahu and Gallant?

And also doesn't take into account the fact that Israel is protected by it's "Big Daddy" USA (as America's strategic outpost in the region).

For example up until December 2023: "The U.S. has used its UN Security Council veto power to block resolutions critical of Israel at least 45 times as of December 18, 2023, according to the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. This represents over half of the total 89 times the U.S. has used its veto since 1945. Many of these vetoes have been used to protect Israel from resolutions related to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories or its treatment of Palestinians."

Thankfully, the behaviour of the Israeli government means that less Americans now support Israel and more Americans are questioning what advantage supporting Israel brings to them.

It will be interesting in the next 20 years as the young people who have watched these atrocities play out assume positions of power whether they will still offer that protection and how Israel will fare if it is removed.

At this point I think the Netanyahu / Israeli worshippers are just being paid to fly the flag, argue nonstop and blame everything on Hamas. Wannabe influencers who think if they say Hamas enough or say we are anti semetic we will all hide away with shame.

Nobody is that delusional or can’t see children suffering and blame everyone but the actual culprit. I mean who cares what’s the NGOs, Govts, journalists or people on the ground are saying. Who cares what’s British doctors that have visited to help are saying. Who cares what the United nations is saying.

As far as the pro Israeli lot are concerned we are all Hamas.

20,000 children are dead. People are being slaughtered and starved to death. But who cares as long as they can blame Hamas.

The Suffragettes did not seek 'common ground' with those who opposed them - they educated them, and they interfered with government and kept the pressure up until women's rights were won. We don't talk about finding 'common ground' between gay people and those who want to kill them, we aim to eradicate hate through education and law enforcement.
Should Mandela have looked for 'common ground' with the apartheid white South African state? Now he actually is famous for seeing his oppressors as human beings, and forgiving them - but he fought them first, he fought and overthrew the oppression. Same with Gandhi and British colonialism.

The oppressor and the oppressed gain common ground only when the injustice is lifted.

Yes they are fulfilling their role to instigate legal charges, wether that turns to a conviction remains to be seen - the unsavoury rhetoric isn't helping Israel’s position. Military analysis has an oposing view to the ICC