So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

[OneKookyShark]

I have read multiple posts both on here and on the CITME forum- and I am aware how toxic the debate is.

But surely when Legitimate and highly respected international NGO talks of ‘orchestrated killing and dehuminisation”, then it starts to become utterly undeniable?

I am sure someone will be along to tell me otherwise. I also note that Netenyahu has ordered a full occupation of Gaza city today.

“Médecins Sans Frontières calls for immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
The medical NGO Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has called for the immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), the US- and Israeli-backed aid organisation operating in Gaza, describing GHF-run food distribution sites in Gaza as having become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”.
In a social media post on Thursday, MSF wrote:
“In MSF’s nearly 54 years of operations, rarely have we seen such levels of systematic violence against unarmed civilians.”
The GHF-run food distributions in Gaza, Palestine, have become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”, not humanitarian aid.
In a new report, MSF analysed medical data, patients’ testimonies and first-hand medical witnesses at two MSF clinics in Gaza and found that it “point[ed] to both targeted and indiscriminate violence by Israeli forces and private American contractors against starved Palestinians” at food distribution sites run by the GHF”

Fucking hell 🙈 That’s bonkers!

I think I was on this thread too - people literally uploading photos of victims in a war zone so we could all judge if they were thin enough to pity. Probably the bleakest thing I’ve ever seen.

The amount of Islamophobia/racism/pure hatred/dehumanisation I have seen aimed at Palestinian people of late is extremely disturbing. Hatred towards Hamas - sure, they’re a terrorist group. But twisting yourself in knots to make the Israeli government’s policies acceptable and discredit pretty reliable sources like MSF is something I just don’t understand.

Jesus, like genocide porn.

I think the deliberate failure to make a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people really disturbs me- it’s justifying collective punishment.

Plus there seems to be a whole mix of misinformation (like they voted for Hamas so they are Hamas) and Islamophobia at play so it’s really hard to have a constructive discussion when someone’s sources are totally biased or just wrong/racist. There’s a lot of very scary echo chambers out there so when their beliefs/ideas are questioned, they are shocked and think you’re basically a member of Hamas.

Something I have noticed is that there is a real scarcity of proper ‘evidence’ on that side of the argument too. I’ve seen a lot of random X profiles and some YouTube clips but I don’t see an alternative to something like MSF to help me understand their perspective.

Did I read somebody talking about echo chambers? Coughs.

MN is definitely not proving to be an echo chamber of my views! And this thread is only just starting - I’m sure people will be along soon enough with valid reasons why sources like MSF are useless. One person has tried so far but their source was a little bias for my liking.

Take at look at the CITME board, if you want to see your views, echoed.

Lots of people on that board have very different views to mine. I’ve spent quite a lot of time talking to them and trying to work out why they think what they think. So they are not echo chambers because an echo chamber is somewhere where you only hear your view repeated back to you - sorry to nitpick but it was something I studied at uni!

You said there's a lot of echo chambers out there. The CITME board represents at least 85 per cent of pro Palestinian threads. That's an example of an echo chamber.

Sorry - I don’t want to derail the thread but echo chambers are specially when you only hear views that ‘echo’ your own. So it needs to be 100% rather than 85% That’s why they’re so dangerous (potentially) because there’s no disagreement or debate so views are repeated and perspectives reinforced over and over. The need for evidence or fact diminishes because no one is questioning each other or calling people out.

edit: just in case I wasn’t clear I initially, I was suggesting people are in echo chambers (probs on social media or friendship groups) and then are shocked when they come to more mixed forums like MN and are questioned.

Depends how you view it. Could also be seen as an important current issue that large numbers of people all agree is terrible rather than echo chamber. It’s all about perception really isn’t it?

It certainly is. As although Doctors without Borders are experts in the medical field, they aren't in the military field.

Israel doesn't want to govern it. What do you think should happen to the civilians, when their neighbours won't have them?

So is this the ‘cost of war’ argument? That we have to accept or even support the actions of the Israeli government and its military orders including any deaths as they are just the sad and inevitable outcome of conflict?

Yes, Jewish people feel the same, when they are grouped with Israel's actions.

Yes - I can imagine that is also very distressing as the Israeli government’s actions clearly don’t reflect the views of all Israeli people, let alone all Jewish people around the world.

Depends on who you believe. There are people starving, but how that starvation comes about, is open to question. Not everybody is going to or be shamed into believing all of that is Israel's fault.

From what I’ve seen, a lot of people accept that Hamas, as a terrorist organisation, are not going to be helping the situation. But what a lot of people don’t understand is when people say it is all on Hamas and Israel are just a victim of propaganda. Based on the evidence from NGOs, Israel has also played a significant role in the pain and suffering of the Palestinian people in its attempt to destroy Hamas.

I don't know what the denialists are playing at. There doesn't seem to be a single international organization that doesnt think Israel are - at least - contributing to the crisis. Even Israel/Netanyahu's biggest enabler - the US - aren't buying the details any more.

If you're a Netanyahu Zealot, or an extreme religious Zionist, you'd be better off trying to spin it as somehow justifiable.

The absolute denials, particularly some of the more deranged assertions that I've seen on here over the last few weeks (such as Palestinians actually being obese) are so evil and unhinged that they're only going to stoke anti-Israel sentiment.

Can you explain what an extreme religious Zionist is. Do you understand the meaning of Zionism?

But that’s a very interesting point. And one of the first times I have seen that acknowledged on here tbh- granted I haven’t read all the threads - but I haven’t had the impression that that point is widely made in these discussions. Its acknowledging a divide between the views of Israeli people and its government around hostage policy isn’t it?

It’s worth pointing out though that the people of Gaza shouldn’t be displaced from their land though. If that’s what your other point means.

I believe the displacement and how everything has played out, is exactly how Hamas wanted it to. Look at how the world is looking at Israel. My heart is with the many people, on both sides, who aren't able to control their plight. Hamas and its neighbours don't care about civilians. If this occupation plan doesn't go ahead, what's the alternative? Israel calls a ceasefire - too late for that, something else Hamas banked on.

Yes, I understand what Zionism is, which is why I focused on a narrow subset.

A religious Zionist would be one that believes there to be divine justification for Israel's existence and (usually) it having particular territory. More extreme Zionists would be those who are uncompromisingly expansionsist, and view realizing Israel's "right" to the disputed territories (beyond the 1948 and/or 1967 borders) to be paramount, and justifies any available means.

There's often an overlap between religiosity and that level of extremism.

Who loves it? The grammar makes the statement ambiguous

The West loves it?
or
Gaza loves it?