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Conflict in the Middle East

To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen in over 20 years? (thread 2)

315 replies

ThisNattyTurtle · 30/03/2025 09:07

Israel has been found to be committing genocide in Gaza by legal teams from the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel has deliberately attacked MSF ambulances and clinics and the World Central Kitchen killing overseas volunteers including a British army vet.
See Amnesty video explaining below

Jewish-American Dr. Mark Perlmutter on what he saw in Gaza and why he believes it's deliberate genocide (warning - heart breaking)
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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ia9sa0iuwHw

On average one child is being killed every 45minutes. Over 100 were killed 18th and 19th March alone. There has been a total blockade preventing entry of food or medicine since the start of March.

Israel is an apartheid state according to the ICJ, UN, B'Tselem, Yesh Din, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch.

The British government is supporting Israel in this genocide with military recon flights and arms. Our government did not stop supporting White Apartheid South Africa until it was forced to by British people's outrage, and by the global boycott. It is time to do the same again to show that we do not accept genocide and that we really do stand by the values of international humanitarian law.

Dr Mark Perlmutter describes finding ‘distinct signs of genocide’ in Gaza

“Genocide was the overwhelming impression that I got.”Orthopaedics surgeon Dr Mark Perlmutter described to Democracy Now on Thursday that he found “distinct ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=116s&v=2QdalGDpCIU

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SallyWD · 30/03/2025 09:14

I wish I properly understood why we sit by in silence and allow this to happen. There needs to be strong condemnation from the west. The only statement on the matter that I can remember from Keir Starmer is "We stand by Israel". Fine but why not condemn the slaughter of so many children? It is completely unacceptable.

ThisNattyTurtle · 30/03/2025 09:24

This is the UN report from Nov. 2024, essentially an audit of the numbers reported by the Gaza health ministry, which found them to be correct (note the health ministry releases ID card no.s with each name and does not count missing people or people blown apart in the death tally).
44% of the dead were children, biggest age groups 5-9, 0-5, 10-12.
No evidence of Hamas hiding in hospitals or schools (as per the report) but there is evidence that Israel targeted Gaza hospitals and healthcare "in an apparently systematic fashion"

"There are strong indications of incidents in which Palestinian journalists may have been directly targeted by the IDF during the course of their work, which would be a war crime".
Israel bans foreign journalists and has killed more local journalists than any other war since records began (International Committee for Protection of Journalists).

www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/opt/20241106-Gaza-Update-Report-OPT.pdf

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ThisNattyTurtle · 30/03/2025 09:31

To address the most common rebuttals:
"What about Hamas?" Hamas is a terrorist organisation, I condemn Oct. 7th and I hope the perps face justice. But long before Hamas existed/ came to power, Israel has been killing and kidnapping children in the West Bank which is ruled by the secular Palestinian authority, which renounced armed resistance in 1993.

  1. Save the Children Jul. 2023 abuse faced by the 700 Palestinian children taken each year (12 yrs +)
  2. Save the Children Sept. 2023 32 Palestinian children killed by Israel Jan -Sept. 2023, 34 children killed 2022, etc for years prior (37 Israeli children unforgivably killed Oct. 7th, at least 7 by indiscriminate Israeli army fire)

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2023/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-of-palestinian-children-detained-by-israeli-military

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank

Stripped, beaten and blindfolded: new research reveals ongoing violence and abuse of Palestinian children detained by Israeli military

Palestinian children in the Israeli military detention system face physical and emotional abuse according to new research by Save the Children.

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2023/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-of-palestinian-children-detained-by-israeli-military

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HelplessAgainstNetenyahuAndHisBulliesInIDF · 30/03/2025 09:33

It is horrendous. I feel so helpless.

I cannot understand how the world sits by and does nothing while a genocide unfolds in front of our eyes.

I cannot imagine the trauma having to be endured daily in gaza. Children seeing, smelling and witnessing death on a daily basis. Toddlers left orphaned, missing limbs. Children literally blown apart with their body parts strewn across streets. How can anyone allow this to happen?

I hate Netenyahu with a passion. I hate Trump almost more. How could anyone possibly imagine building settlements or hotels on the bodies of dead men, women and children. I don't understand it.

The human heart is missing in people who think any of this is ok. They are evil, soulless, and cruel beyond imagination.

I hate that the world is allowing this. I hate Netenyahu I hate the IDF.

ThisNattyTurtle · 30/03/2025 09:38

Another common rebuttal:
"what else can Israel do?" Israel has one of the most sophisticated military forces in the world, it can take out a single flat in an appartment block in Iran hundreds of km away. Israel has the whole tiny Gaza strip (42km x 10km) under heavy surveillance. At the very least it could: not drop 2,000 lb 'dumb' bombs not used since WW2, not flatten entire appartment blocks with every soul in them, not deliberately target hospitals and ambulances (see OHCHR report above and MSF), not food from getting in.

But actually what Israel could, most effectively, do, is withdraw its illegal occupation of the West Bank, rewarding the pacifist secular Palestinian authority with a Palestinian state (the much promised, never delivered "2 state solution") and release the Palestinian hostages it holds. That would secure the release of the Israeli hostages and completely destroy Hamas and its entire reason for existence in one fell swoop.

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Fordian · 30/03/2025 11:18

I think the reason people don’t care as much as you’d like is a bit more complex than people are heartless, cruel and evil.

There is most definitely an anti-Muslim sentiment across the western world, particularly those leaning more right; I think the protests in some ways did more harm than good, at a time where anti-immigrant sentiment is growing; large numbers of black clad people waving a foreign flag calling for the destruction of what is the only ‘western leaning’ country in the Middle East, abetted by the same people who do Just Stop Oil, pro-trans, etc, your ‘Gretas’, cancelling and labelling fascist and bigot anyone who disagrees with them, blue haired non-binaries and earnest young middle-class women isn’t helping; all poorly policed and often openly anti-Semitic, as university and college campuses are occupied by young people who apparently can’t find Israel on a map. I think the indifference to Congo and Sudan rather reinforces ‘No Jews, No News’.

I think how the origins and state of Israel is being simplistically if not falsely portrayed, exploiting those who believe everything they see on TikTok, not helped by the scale of the propaganda across our SM, Dr Fafo being a prime example. Even I spotted images I knew I’d seen before (Syria).

I think Hamas being actively supported by a regime that openly wants us, the West, dead, doesn’t engender sympathy towards those who support Hamas; the relative indifference to the Palestinians’ situation across the Islamic world has been noted. Many think Israel is doing their dirty work for them. I think had the likes of Amnesty, the UN et al immediately and emphatically denounced the actions of Oct 7, there might have been a different sentiment, but they didn’t, two organisations who incidentally have discredited themselves somewhat over the past couple of years.

I think many pro-Gaza supporters have forgotten who started this particular war, or at least think the rest of us have. The staggering stupidity of Oct 7, then filming it, then putting it online! Gazan parents celebrating their children’s ’martyrdom’ paints a picture of people who value their lives less than we do ours. Wildly disproportionate hostage/ prisoner swaps reinforce this idea. The shameful and egregious way some of the hostages were released reminded us that Hamas still command enormous support in Gaza.

Hamas are the chief perpetrators of Gaza’s suffering. They have, or had within their remit the possibility of stopping all this but have chosen not to, but this is a proxy war, fundamentalist Islamic ideology versus the western liberal canon.

You can pile in wailing about how wrong I am etc, but I am explaining why I think there is considerably less concern for Gaza than you would imagine there should be.

Personally I believe that it is a horrific waste of lives on both sides, but I won’t be joining you in your blind condemnation of Israel. With Gaza, my support lies with the brave individuals now standing up to Hamas, facing imprisonment, torture and death for doing so. Gaza deserves and needs better, but first they need to throw out Hamas.

Letmecallyouback · 31/03/2025 14:35

It does appear the supply blockades are leading to a further death toll among injured citizens that would otherwise have been preventable. I’m sure it was previously mentioned that prevention of essential medical supplies like this is a crime as it effectively ensures more deaths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdrxr7np4xzo.amp

Fordian · 31/03/2025 15:43

But the reality is, who is setting ‘the rules’? Who is enforcing them? That’s not to suggest I’m okay with a free for all, but you’ll notice all the calls have been for a Israeli ceasefire; no one is bothering demanding that of Hamas because the world knows it’s pointless, that they’re not going to follow any rules.

Yet we squeal ‘crime!’ At Israel.

Freysimo · 31/03/2025 15:56

Genuine question: what did Hamas expect to happen after October 7?

Letmecallyouback · 31/03/2025 18:14

Freysimo · 31/03/2025 15:56

Genuine question: what did Hamas expect to happen after October 7?

That's already been discussed at length on the previous thread. It has also been discussed at length that the tens of thousands of innocent civilians being slaughtered are not Hamas.

Fordian · 31/03/2025 18:49

Freysimo · 31/03/2025 15:56

Genuine question: what did Hamas expect to happen after October 7?

It is a good question. It has been suggested that Hamas planned a small border incursion; Israel was distracted by political issues thus weren’t as on-the-ball as expected; the lads of Hamas could not believe their luck, did their ‘thing’, running amok, filming as they went.

I have zero links, 18 months later, but my recollection is that Iran went ‘Oh feck’ as the footage went online. Something about only blowing the bloody doors off….

This, unplanned, became an opportunity for Israel to flatten the enemy who had been firing rockets into Israel for decades, its youth stoning Israeli vehicles, stabbing the random bystander, all the while calling for the annihilation of Israel, broadly supported by the Muslim world. Til push came to shove.

As I said before, to me the relative indifference of the Arab/Muslim world (contrasted against the Muslim ‘diaspora’ living in safety and relative comfort in the west) towards this tells me all I need to know.

Meanwhile, the Hamas leadership live in opulent safety, while sending Gazans to their deaths.

ThisNattyTurtle · 31/03/2025 22:33

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/31/israel-killed-15-palestinian-paramedics-and-rescue-workers-one-by-one-says-un

The UN has verified that Israel killed 15 Palestinian paramedics whom they had approved to go to Rafah to rescue other trapped paramedics.
They killed them one by one, some while they were detained, then buried the ambulances in the sand with their army bulldozers

Israel killed 15 Palestinian paramedics and rescue workers one by one, says UN

Workers on a mission to help colleagues were buried in mass grave in southern Gaza, says humanitarian office

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/31/israel-killed-15-palestinian-paramedics-and-rescue-workers-one-by-one-says-un

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ThisNattyTurtle · 31/03/2025 22:41

@Fordian you want to dismiss this as though it's just radical Islamists and "blue-haired non-binaries" but the marches contain healthcare workers, lawyers, teachers, Holocaust survivors and their descendants, ordinary decent British people who refuse to accept complicity in genocide.

It is not in keeping with British values, nor is it "Western-leaning" for an army to snipe 5-10 year olds in the chest and head. It is not British values to bomb hospitals and ambulances and clinics, including those of MSF and the UN. It is not British values for an army to detain and then execute 15 paramedics one by one.
You may buy the narrative you have been fed by the media but when every reputable NGO - UN, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, Oxfam, Save the Children, MSF, is screaming out ablout the war crimes being committed by Israel, the rest of us are having our eyes opened. The UK fought against a genocide and helped found the institutions that promised to prevent future genocides. I will not be silent as my government aids a genocide now.

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ThisNattyTurtle · 31/03/2025 23:00

Fordian · 31/03/2025 15:43

But the reality is, who is setting ‘the rules’? Who is enforcing them? That’s not to suggest I’m okay with a free for all, but you’ll notice all the calls have been for a Israeli ceasefire; no one is bothering demanding that of Hamas because the world knows it’s pointless, that they’re not going to follow any rules.

Yet we squeal ‘crime!’ At Israel.

These false parallels are abject nonsens.
Hamas is a terrorist group as per the UK and already under sanctions. We do not supply arms or money to Hamas - unlike Netanyahu, who funnelled money to Hamas in order to undermine the secular Palestinian authority and foment civil war amongst Palestinian factions. Now I wonder why he would do that?

Israel killed nearly an Oct. 7th number of unarmed Palestinian children in each of 2022 and Jan-Sept 2023 (and for years prior) yet we continued to fund and arm Israel. Israel* kidnaps Palestinian children, 700/year, holds them without legal or parental visits, and abuses them (Save the Children 2019) yet we continued to fund and arm Israel. *
Israel is currently committing a genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, with the highest rate of child slaughter since the Rwandan genocide yet we continue to arm and fund them. Is that who Britain is on the world stage in 2025? Really?

We do not arm and fund the rebels in the Congo nor the RSF in Sudan. We don't host them in the White House, in Downing Street, or in FIFA. We don't send them weapons with which to slaughter children.
And, by the way, those advocating for Palestine overlap hugely with those advocating for Congo and Sudan. I have yet to see someone supporting Israel turn up for Congo or Sudan - it's just a useful distraction "hey they're having genocides too why can't we??"

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Ooral · 31/03/2025 23:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

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ThisNattyTurtle · 31/03/2025 23:12

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

The figures from the Gaza Health Ministry were audited by the UN in Nov. 2024 and found to be entirely accurate, just as they have been when the UN audited in every previous attack by Israel on Gaza.
Please find me one credible NGO that questions the figures. None of those one the ground do.
The Lancet published a peer-reviewed article which used statistical analysis to estimate losses and concluded the official tally was likely 20% undercount because it excludes those still buried under the rubble.
The under-secretary general of the UN said the scenes in Gaza are the worst he has ever seen in a career that started with the Killing Fields in Cambodia.
The figures come with ID card no's and the ID cards are registered with the Israeli security services, because they control all facets of life in Gaza.

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ThisNattyTurtle · 31/03/2025 23:28

See the below from Jonathan Whittall of OCHA via his X feed.
Good God. This is the most documented genocide in history. One day our grandchildren will be trawling though these images and will ask us, how, how could you have let this happen? How could our country have supported this??

To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen in over 20 years? (thread 2)
To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen in over 20 years? (thread 2)
To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen in over 20 years? (thread 2)
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ThisNattyTurtle · 31/03/2025 23:39

Statement from OCHA. Contrast that with the nonsense spoken by our government as they try to justify a genocide.
Our own Foreign Office has advised the govt several times that there is grave risk of breach of international law.
They don't have money for winter fuel payments or disability support - but 1.5 years of rampant genocide that's top financial priority.

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ThisNattyTurtle · 31/03/2025 23:39

Statement attached

To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen in over 20 years? (thread 2)
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Letmecallyouback · 01/04/2025 09:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

For clarity, do you mean that murdering children might be the best way to stop killing in future? 😳

Letmecallyouback · 01/04/2025 09:30

ThisNattyTurtle · 31/03/2025 23:28

See the below from Jonathan Whittall of OCHA via his X feed.
Good God. This is the most documented genocide in history. One day our grandchildren will be trawling though these images and will ask us, how, how could you have let this happen? How could our country have supported this??

…And still they say ‘but what else could Israel do?’ #Unfuckingbelievable…

ThisNattyTurtle · 01/04/2025 11:30

https://www.unocha.org/news/un-relief-chief-urges-international-action-protect-civilians-gaza

We are on the wrong side of history and worse, we are making a mockery of everything that was fought for during the second world war and all the lessons learned. We are, on the international stage, funding and arming an open genocide. We are declaring that we are ok with hospitals and ambulances being systematically bombed and destroyed, healthcare workers abducted raped and tortured, children shot dead as they flee.

That is what the British government is supporting, right now, on the world stage. I do not consent, do you?

Jana, centre, holds hands with her siblings as they stand amidst the rubble of their destroyed home in Rafah.

UN Relief Chief urges international action to protect civilians in Gaza

Statement on Gaza by Tom Fletcher, Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator

https://www.unocha.org/news/un-relief-chief-urges-international-action-protect-civilians-gaza

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