To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen in over 20 years? (thread 2)

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel has been found to be committing genocide in Gaza by legal teams from the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel has deliberately attacked MSF ambulances and clinics and the World Central Kitchen killing overseas volunteers including a British army vet.
See Amnesty video explaining below

Jewish-American Dr. Mark Perlmutter on what he saw in Gaza and why he believes it's deliberate genocide (warning - heart breaking)
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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ia9sa0iuwHw

On average one child is being killed every 45minutes. Over 100 were killed 18th and 19th March alone. There has been a total blockade preventing entry of food or medicine since the start of March.

Israel is an apartheid state according to the ICJ, UN, B'Tselem, Yesh Din, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch.

The British government is supporting Israel in this genocide with military recon flights and arms. Our government did not stop supporting White Apartheid South Africa until it was forced to by British people's outrage, and by the global boycott. It is time to do the same again to show that we do not accept genocide and that we really do stand by the values of international humanitarian law.

And you're deflection regarding the 'foreign invasion' , when you know that a popular pro pal narrative is that no Israelis are indigenous is a wee bit disingenuous.

Your deflection regarding whether you think Israelis are foreigners in the West Bank and Gaza is interesting as we know some extremists in Israel believe that God has promised them the land. Do you believe the West Bank and Gaza to be part of the promised greater Israel? I know you’ll deflect the question, maybe answer the question with a question and avoid telling us what you think.

I don’t believe anyone on this thread has said or thinks ALL Israelis are new to the area, many are indigenous but a huge amount of them are what in Ireland we would call “Blow Ins” - many settled to the area after 1948, some after 1967 and some just arrived in 2025 from all corners of the globe.

For me being native or non native is less relevant to how you treat people and what you do when you get to a place. I am an immigrant, when I moved to England I found a rental, got a job and slotted into the normal routine of the locals paying taxes into the local economy, voting and abiding by the local laws. Several of my friends parents came from abroad to Ireland but they are now Irish, I meet English people all the time who tell me they have Irish parents. It’s when people move someplace and forcibly displace the locals, cut off their access to water, chop down their olive groves, poison their wells, drive them out of their houses at gun point that is when I have a problem. If settlers in the West Bank moved in and paid for their new properties, got jobs and paid taxes into the local economy like normal migrants I would wish them the best.

When people say they are “chosen” they are saying they are a superior race which in turn means they are saying all others are inferior which is dehumanising, racist and akin to white supremacists. I know many good Israelis are disgusted by the behaviour of the racists marching today, of the IDF, of land grabbing settlers and the Israeli government - it’s the ones that have gotten their properties through theft and the ones that believe they have a God given right to the land that I have an issue with. The ones who say they are “chosen by God” are supremacists, they are bigots and when they turn up in the West Banks with guns and American accents attacking people who have lived there for generations then I would call them foreign invaders - they are coming from abroad to steal other people’s stuff, what else could they be?

I don't disagree with many of your points.

I believe that if Gaza hadn't elected hamas and constantly attacked Israel since Israelis left it in 2005 they wouldn't be in the mess they're in now. I believe that the 'government' of Gaza is corrupt and a pawn of Iran.
Wrt to the west bank - my understanding is that there are 3 areas, each under different governance. Perhaps if Jordan had kept it, it would be more peaceful (and judenfrei) but Jordan couldn't keep a lid on Palestinian terrorism so gave it up. Now it's a mix of ethnic tensions which is a nightmare for Israel and the Palestinian authority (who've also had a few tellings off from amnesty for the way they treat their citizens - because those little scamps hamas cause trouble in the west bank too) instead of Jordan. There is of course violence from both sides.
Blow-ins is an interesting phrase. As you say, integration and consideration is key to community harmony. The sectarian divisions in the middle east are notorious, very fifo but with more guns and brutality.

I quite like people of faith, but I only really hang out with nice ones who look out for people, feed the poor, are kind to furry animals etc. I've met a few of the 'weaponising religion for political aims' types and can't really get along with them. If they really do believe in god they might be surprised how they're judged for buggering up his(?) nice planet, though i''m with Terry Pratchett rather than Genesis - man creates god in his image rather than vice versa & maybe that's what Abraham was trying to achieve when he patriarched a faith that forbade personification of it's deity.

Incidentally I've never met a proselytising Jew, only ever Christians or Muslims.🤷

On chanbel 4 news last night a doctor working there said there have been
2,300 families wiped out, and there are 42,000 orphans.

She had a three year old little boy with third degree burns in 45% of his body and his family is dead.

The doctor whose nine out of ten children were killed were returned to her as charcoal.

when will you wake up to the fact that this is not about Hamas?

Unless you are a world leader privy to a bigger picture, not necessarily the whole picture, my view is as valid as yours. If you are a world leader, get off mumsnet and do your job.

Your viewpoint can’t be valid because it takes no notice of events!

I’m almost certain that recognition of Palestine by European countries will have virtually no impact on Israel’s decision to annex the West Bank. It seems clear that annexation is already being planned. Israel’s warnings now appear more like a pretext—setting the stage to later justify annexation by blaming international recognition of Palestine. This isn’t subtle; it’s a calculated move.

It’s sad to read that that this horrific murder of Iman al-Hams took place almost 2 decades ago. She was only 13 years old. She would have been in her early 30s by now. This speaks volumes: “Capt R's lawyers argued that the "confirmation of the kill" after a suspect is shot was a standard Israeli military practice to eliminate terrorist threats.” But she was clearly just a terrified schoolgirl wearing a schoolbag that the Israeli army quickly established didn’t have explosives by shooting at it several times. Anyone would be terrified 😢.

Whilst this is an old article I recommend everyone reads the words of Omer Bartov.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

“On 10 November 2023, I wrote in the New York Times: “As a historian of genocide, I believe that there is no proof that genocide is now taking place in Gaza, although it is very likely that war crimes, and even crimes against humanity, are happening. […] We know from history that it is crucial to warn of the potential for genocide before it occurs, rather than belatedly condemn it after it has taken place. I think we still have that time.”
I no longer believe that. By the time I travelled to Israel, I had become convinced that at least since the attack by the IDF on Rafah on 6 May 2024, it was no longer possible to deny that Israel was engaged in systematic war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocidal actions. It was not just that this attack against the last concentration of Gazans – most of them displaced already several times by the IDF, which now once again pushed them to a so-called safe zone – demonstrated a total disregard of any humanitarian standards. It also clearly indicated that the ultimate goal of this entire undertaking from the very beginning had been to make the entire Gaza Strip uninhabitable, and to debilitate its population to such a degree that it would either die out or seek all possible options to flee the territory. In other words, the rhetoric spouted by Israeli leaders since 7 October was now being translated into reality – namely, as the 1948 UN Genocide Convention puts it, that Israel was acting “with intent to destroy, in whole or in part”, the Palestinian population in Gaza, “as such, by killing, causing serious harm, or inflicting conditions of life meant to bring about the group’s destruction”.

Amazing to think he noted that in May 2024 and it’s still taken another entire YEAR for some people to start to wake up and speak up.
Ridiculous for example that the writers who this week wrote their letter of protest about the genocide only decided NOW that what was going on was unconscionable. I’d foolishly believed before this genocide that writers were the thinkers in this world
Why has it taken so long for people to start speaking up? Are the deaths of 50 000 people reasonable but 50 001 is suddenly something worth noticing?

In fairness to a lot of those writers a lot of them have been individually calling it a genocide and asking governments to act there was a previous letter last year signed by over a thousand writers looking for a cultural boycott - it’s more the media didn’t pick it up. Groups like Artists Against Genocide have been calling out the genocide for a long time. A lot of writers have been advocating for Palestinians rights for years before this current genocide.

Agreed and writers like Sally Rooney have been brave in calling for sanctions a long while ago. Some of those on the recent letter have had a bit of a change of tune though and/or only spoken out now. I do think that is a shame. I don’t know why I should be any more disappointed in writers than any other kind of celebrity or anyone in daily life but I do find it a pity not to see for example Margaret Atwood speaking on Gaza when she has plenty to say on Ukraine. And what about all the ‘GCSE poets’ from back in the day? Hopefully I’ve just missed their comments

Dr Gabor Maté