"You see us burning, you stay silent..."

[Scirocco]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr54y0qplgvo

Please, read, listen and see what is being done to innocent people here.

Remember them.

Now, perhaps more than at any previous time in history, we can easily know the human cost of hate and violence, and the human cost of looking away.

Remember them. And remember all the other innocent people who have died and continue to die because of hatred and because of apathy.

I don't want to take sides in this war. There have been horrific acts done by both sides. But only Hamas can stop the war. Israel can't realistically step back and say, okay, destroy us. That would be insane. Hamas have made it clear that they won't stop until there are no more Jews.

You can choose to remember whoever you want no one is suggesting you can't but the fact that you came on this thread to write this post speaks volumes about you and what you think of innocent Palestinians.
No respect shameful.

@Scirocco you can tell people about the arms, the genocide, the atrocities,
the Nakba, the difference between anti-Zionism and antisemitism, colonialism, human rights and the right to self determination. You can tell people about quadcopters, children sniped, people haunted by drones and targeted by missiles.
You can tell them that the hostages have been abandoned by Netanyahu and even those who were freed have been left without any support. You can explain that what we condone now will be used against us with impunity.
It doesn't matter. They don't want to know. See also Covid, Brexit and Leopards Eating My Face.
But keep truth telling. Peace will come. Justice will prevail.

Israel can't realistically step back and say, okay, destroy us.
And that is the only outcome if Israel stopped killing innocent civilians, stopped bombing hospitals and enabled proper humane treatment for the sick, dying and wounded, stopped blocking or limiting aid getting through, let independent observers and the independent press in to see what was going on? No one is suggesting Israel surrender to Hamas so give your head a wobble and think logically about this and what Israel can do to save rather then destroy lives

Nobody reasonable is expecting Israel to just lie down and die (although a large number of people do expect that of Palestinians, Lebanese and other Muslims). What is being asked by the international community and by people directly affected is for Israel to conduct its activities within international law. There is evidence of collective punishment, deliberate targeting of civilians, torture, statements of genocidal intent and plans for ethnic cleansing, etc. These things are wrong, wherever they happen and whoever is doing them. Many, many people wanted to see Hamas gone and the perpetrators of terrorism face justice, and would have supported and aided action to achieve that through methods within international law.

It isn't about taking sides, which you are doing btw. It is about acknowledging the unbearable level of Palestinian deaths and the manner of these deaths.
They matter as much as Israelis'. No more, no less. To deny this is to deny their humanity.

It seems to me that most on this thread think only Palestinian lives matter.
This thread is about an incident involving Palestinians which is why they are being discussed on this thread.

Let's not forget that the Palestinians also committed unbelievable atrocities, the likes of which haven't been seen since the Holocaust.
I assume you are referring to Hamas? Let's not accuse all Palestinians of this

But yes, in terms of what is moral, of course Israel needs to prevail. The terrorists can't win -
No terrorists can't win but this isn't about winning or losing, Palestinians can't be killed in their tens of thousands either

That doesn't mean that I think the loss of life doesn't matter or that Israel should he allowed to commit war crimes. But I think any discussion which focuses solely on Palestinian losses is contributing to a very skewed narrative which paints Israel as evil aggressors and Hamas as naïve innocents.
As I said THIS thread is discussing an incident which involved Palestinians, why do you have an issue with people discussing that?

In reality, Hamas is ultimately to blame for the deaths on both sides,
Hamas are responsible for deaths and Israel is also responsible for the people they have killed

@wrongthinker apt username.
Why is there always whataboutery?
Here is some, although it doesn't fit the narrative.
Lots of people have done worse things than Hamas. October 7th was horrible. But there have been worse things done in Bosnia, in Rwanda, in Vietnam, in China. In Ukraine. In Sudan.
It was the worst thing to happen
to Jewish Israelis.

Bad things have happened and continue to happen to Palestinians who live under Israeli threat.

None of these things are right. And none of them are an excuse to then bomb the children of the surrounding countries into oblivion.

@Scirocco , please believe me people care. People are angry and disgusted at what is happening. I think Israel has tarnished itself more than it realises. No one i know supports Hamas or what happened on oct 7th, most people can distinguish good from bad. No one wants to see civilians slaughtered. But Israel have gone beyond slaughter, this is a genocide and i don't know anyone watching who doesn't find it utterly abhorrent. And seeing our successive governments support it makes me despair. There's no honesty happening anywhere. There's no one speaking up and speaking out. Young people get heckled for saying the truth. Its beyond infuriating.
I have to be careful what i say on here as ive been called all sorts and had mn wrapping my knuckles. And i like this website, i dont want banned. But there is a portion of pro Israel posters i believe are shutting down any criticism of Israel and they are ferocious.

But in my life no one is defending Israel any more. Even my Jewish friends aren't, and they did at the beginning. Israel have gone too far, way too far. And its sickening.

All of the people I know ( colleagues/friend/ family in France) care. They express their disbelief at the level of cruelty inflicted on Palestinians. Like them, I feel powerless in the face of this horror.
We speak of them as a number (42000 dead). We only know a few of their names. I am not taking about Hamas terrorists btw but about the children, men and women who are innocents. Their crime is to have been born Palestinians. Nothing else.
This is about land grabbing. Expansionism. To think otherwise is to delude yourself.
The Western government have blood on their hands because geopolitics and money matter more than human lives.
Dr Gabor Mate, a Holocaust survivor and a trauma expert, said: "And what shall we do, we ordinary people? I pray we can listen to our hearts. My heart tells me that “never again” is not a tribal slogan, that the murder of my grandparents in Auschwitz does not justify the ongoing dispossession of Palestinians, that justice, truth, peace are not tribal prerogatives. That Israel’s “right to defend itself,” unarguable in principle, does not validate mass killing."
I agree with him.

Everyone I know cares. In Ireland thankfully the normal reaction is horror and disgust at what's happening.

Would people go on to a thread specifically about the suffering of individual people from any other demographic, and object to the discussion of those people in the thread?

There are threads specifically about individuals and families affected by other conflicts and other terrorist activities. There are threads specifically about the hostages taken on October 7th - their stories as people, not just as bargaining chips or statistics but as real people, because knowing their names and their faces and their stories is important. People generally manage to respect that, regardless of politics or academic viewpoints, it is the decent, human thing to do, to allow people to be seen as people.

This thread is about the pain of Shaban's family and the thousands of families like them suffering. There are many people out in the world, myself included, whose loved ones lie in unmarked graves, whose faces and names and lives will be forgotten by the world even if the statistics remain. Tens of thousands of people are dead, and every one of them had a name, a face, a life, someone who loved them. It's going to be impossible for them all to be remembered by the world. But we can see Shaban and his family. You can see them and remember what happened to an ordinary family, just like any of our own families.

If someone doesn't want to see, for whatever reason, they can choose not to read a clearly marked thread on a board specifically about the conflict. Many people might feel they need to not look, for their own mental wellbeing, and that's understandable. But that's not what's happening here. Here, people are coming on to a thread about a family's pain and objecting to it not being about other people's pain (when there are multiple threads about those people's pain and nobody here has minimised those people's pain), defending collective punishment, and intentionally seeking to distract away from the human cost of war when that human cost relates to a demographic they seem to dislike. That's intentional. I hope people can see that.

Yes - I think it is very wrong to go onto a thread about the terrible fate of innocent individuals and show no sorrow for what happened but instead try to provoke those who are grieving.
It’s like going to a funeral wake and refusing to talk about the bereaved but instead mocking the mourners.
I don’t think it just happens to Palestinians. Sadly I have seen it happen on threads mourning the loss of hostages / Oct 7.
There are some horrible people who do no credit to whatever “side” they say they are on. I genuinely believe they are in the minority.
I will say a prayer that Shaban’s family will be comforted and their future will be one of peace and love . Shaban is in a better place .I hope his death may help to change hard hearts . 🙏

I don’t think it’s necessary to take sides . But it is human decency to show sorrow for innocent suffering .
I think most people feel that Shaban’s death should make politicians stop and think about the road they are on.
Please don’t respond to this with any further political commentary but instead set up a new thread for discussion so that people on here don’t feel Shaban’s suffering is disregarded.

I'm sorry, it is sad. But it is a war, so it's pretty impossible to separate it out from that context. I'm sorry you feel you are grieving but think it's a bit narcissistic to act like any of this is happening to you, to the extent that any discussion of context is personally upsetting to you. Still, I'll leave the thread so you can continue your grieving in peace.

I'm sorry you feel you are grieving
What a horrible thing to say to someone

Or an obvious typo? I'm sorry you feel grief/are grieving.

I’m not personally grieving as I don’t know the people involved. I don’t think it’s narcissistic to feel empathy. I was just suggesting they are are more appropriate places to discuss the political aspects. I’ve argued with lots of people on here but I would not choose to debate on a thread like this as it seems callous

Well I'm trying to leave the thread!

👍🏼

Probably better off.

And it's not a war...

Of course it's a war. And if you want me to leave the thread, don't tag me. It alerts me to quotes, tags etc even when I've unwatched the thread.

Apt username

Not much point to this unless you want to keep the argument going . They’d already said they were leaving .