"You see us burning, you stay silent..."

[Scirocco]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr54y0qplgvo

Please, read, listen and see what is being done to innocent people here.

Remember them.

Now, perhaps more than at any previous time in history, we can easily know the human cost of hate and violence, and the human cost of looking away.

Remember them. And remember all the other innocent people who have died and continue to die because of hatred and because of apathy.

They don't want to talk about that or even others to talk about it. Some clearly want others to stay silent on the genocide.

Again, again, again…
Why don’t you get that people can be appalled by, and demonstrate against the actions and excesses of the Israeli government and military, without being anti-Semitic or ‘not keen on Jews’, whatever the hell that means?

The United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) says children are being medically evacuated from Gaza at a rate of fewer than one child per day.
Speaking yesterday at the UN office in Geneva, spokesman James Elder said that it would take “more than seven years to evacuate the 2,500 children in need of urgent medical care” should this pace continue.
According to UNICEF, this rate has fallen from 296 to 22 children per month since the Rafah border crossing closed on 6 May.
“That is just 127 children – suffering from head trauma, amputations, burns, cancer, and severe malnutrition – [who] have been allowed to leave Gaza since Rafah closed.”

Hand on heart, can you really imagine the same thing happening to Israeli children, without there being a mass effort from around the world to evacuate them as quickly as possible? This is slaughter and starvation on a massive scale, and it is not anti-Semitic to call Israel out on what it is in the process of doing, which is carrying out a sustained and calculated assault on the innocents of Gaza, having already destroyed the infrastructure and means to mitigate the damage being done to children and civilians on a daily basis.

@maudelovesharold

I just saw that video clip. It’s on the Guardian live feed for today at 9:11am.

This is the reality, little children are being hurt by Israel, then denied the medical care they need, and then dying.

https://x.com/UNICEF/status/1849971708658319793?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1849971708658319793%7Ctwgr%5E6d08475bfe04a4df96037834c785428a6191b3a1%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2Flive%2F2024%2Foct%2F26%2Fmiddle-east-crisis-live-israel-airstrikes-iran-lebanon-gaza-hamas-hezbollah-latest-updates%3Fpage%3Dwith3Ablock-671ca1808f080a42be756f21

I agree with you for most of the time and most posters on MN.

But sometimes it is abused to silence conversation. I have had a post reported and deleted as antisemitic even though it was most definitely not antisemtic. I disagreed with another poster who is afaik a self-appointed white knight for Jewish people and often reacts to criticism of the Israeli government and military as if it were antisemitic.

I am Jewish. I shouldn’t have to remind posters that there is no world Jewish hive mind and like any other ethnic-religious group, we are quite capable as full human beings of having differing opinions as to how our homeland should be led, the values it should uphold and the military actions it should engage in or abhor.

I also will never vote for Labour or Tory. Their antisemitism is one of many reasons why.

Bizarre comment
You must know that a lot of people, both left and right , would disagree with this…

@RAplusOne
”Member States adopted a resolution, demanding an “immediate humanitarian ceasefire”, the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages and well as “ensuring humanitarian access”. It passed with a large majority of 153 in favour and 10 against, with 23 abstentions” - Dec 2023 UN
It is important to look at why this resolution hasn't yet happened...

1. Hamas said no to hostage release.

And look at the only conditions that will enable this resolution to happen.... 1 Removal / total defeat of Hamas”

?whatever gave you this idea?

2 of the 10 countries that voted against were the US and Israel.

“Israel’s Permanent Representative, Gilad Erdan, said that the General Assembly finds itself “about to vote on another hypocritical resolution."
“Not only does this resolution fail to condemn Hamas for crimes against humanity, it does not mention Hamas at all. This will only prolong the death and destruction in the region, that is precisely what a ceasefire means,” he said.
He added that the only intention of Hamas is to destroy Israel and that the group has declared that it will repeat its atrocities again and again until Israel ceases to exist.
“So why would anyone want to aid Hamas in continuing their rule of terror and actualizing their satanic agenda?”, he asked.
“We all know that the so call humanitarian ceasefire in this resolution has nothing to do with humanity. Israel is already taking every measure to facilitate the entry of humanitarian aid into Gaza,” he added.
He underscored the need to hold Hamas accountable. He said a ceasefire means one thing only - "the survival of Hamas."
“I honestly don’t know how can someone look in the mirror and support a resolution that does not condemn Hamas and does not even mention Hamas by name,” he said, urging all Member States to vote against the resolution.”

US ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield, introducing the US amendment, said that it was yet another resolution that failed to condemn Hamas.
"Our goal must be to stop the death the devastation and the destruction for the long-term and that is simply not a future Hamas wants to see", she said.
Ms. Thomas-Greenfield said the US is working towards a “sustainable peace,” and that the country agrees with some aspects of the resolution. “We agree that the humanitarian situation is dire, that it requires urgent and sustained attention…that civilians must be protected, consistent with international humanitarian law.”

This immediate rejection by Israel and the U.S. is why it was never implemented. https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/12/1144717

I don't actually, it's only from this thread I've ever seen that people don't think he's anti-semitic. I think if you asked people in the street who they think the most anti semitic MP there is, 9 out of 10 would say Jeremy Corbyn. He called Hamas and Hezbollah his " friends" and disagreed with the British Govt that Hamas should be called " terrorists"!

Sorry -I misunderstood- I thought you were saying the opposite- that he was not anti semitic 😣
Not sure how I mis-read - apologies

LoremIpsumCici · 25/10/2024 12:35

They are arguing wrongly because the rule book, which is international law, states that even if your opponent commits war crimes that doesn’t mean you can also commit war crimes. The laws are still there and should be followed.

Hypocritical. You live in a peace that only exists because your Government will genocide any country that attacks you and you criticise another country for using your same methods.

The big boys have set the rules here. USA, Russia, Uk, France, China are at peace because we have WMD pointed at each other 24hours a day 365 a year. they have all promised each other an overwhelming genocidal retaliation. These 5 nations are also the worlds security council ie they set the rules.

Israel is emulating.

LoremIpsumCici · 25/10/2024 12:32

"When people dropped nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or bombed Dresden and other cities, they didn't bring freedom to the people of those places. They brought death.
The freedom that was celebrated was for other people, not the people in those targeted areas."

Today most of Germany accept that Hitler was a bad bstd and most Germans think they were freed from him in the only viable way. Yes Stalin was another bad bstd and East Germany's wait for freedom wasn't in the original plan. That was obviously more weighted to achieving our own freedom.

Tell me again how 3 days of bombing one German city directly caused the Berlin Wall to come down in 1989, the collapse of the Soviet Union and reunification of Germany? Ok I'll try. Germany was winning the war because of their industrial might. For example their Tiger tanks were indestructible. Their jet fighters were too fast for the allies. These weren't destroyed in battle. They stopped working for want of supplies, such as fuel, service parts ie ball bearings. These ball bearings were made in factories in German cities by German civillians. Hencethe RAF USAF carpet bombing of Dresden, Hamburg etc indirectly stopped the Tigers moving and the Jets getting airbourne. Germany was defeated and this time forced into unconditional surrender MILITARILY. May 1945 WW2 transitioned to the Cold War, West Germany moving to our side, a massive spending on armaments, but no loss of life. Like a medieval siege. A battle of wills that lasted 40 years until the tryants inside the Iron Curtain lost their will.

Tell me how the nuclear bombs brought freedom when they really brought nothing but death, destruction and occupation? Look at yourself. Guessing you live in the UK? Or Western Europe. You have been free all your life. Because of the nuclear weapons pointed at those that seek to take your freedom away.

It was the peace process and diplomacy that brought freedom.
Really? Chamberlain tried this. It failed. And led to war. A big war on global scale that lasted 6 years and eventually resulted in freedom for a lot of people then and now. Germany and Japan were forced to accept peace because of overwhelming military destruction. NOT diplomacy.

Scirocco · 25/10/2024 12:38

Could people please stop
a) equating Hamas with Palestinians
and
b) saying patronising crap like "Palestinians - reach out to us" - it's offensive.

a) I accept they are not one and the same. But 40% is significant. And this is part of the problem today from Israel's pov. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-rise-support-armed-struggle-by-palestinians-2024-06-13/
and
b) 40,000 people dead but hurty words is your big issue? Youve asked a question and are upset because a view from outside your echo chamber has been expressed. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If we put all solutions on the table Palestinian terrorists could consider changing tact - for 70 years they've disengaged from the World by their use of violence and reneging. Why not try talking and listening? Some real positive examples from the past whenever they stepped back from violence. Look at the different lives of Palestinians in Gaza governed by violent Pshycos and those in West Bank governed by less psychotic politicians. Egypt and Jordan reached out and embraced peace. They now live next to Israel in peace and benefit from the help the world gives them as a result. Histrory shows us what is possible.

and

c) stop telling me what I can do

If you want people to respond when you're referencing them in posts, or want to give people the common courtesy of knowing they're being talked about or at, you can either use the @ function or the 'quote' option at the bottom of posts.

Palestinians are not Hamas. They don't deserve death, torture and suffering as retribution for Hamas's terrorism. They don't deserve to be occupied, oppressed, raped, tortured, murdered and more.

Pointing out that something is offensive gives an opportunity for a person who is being offensive or who may have read something and wondered if it was ok or not to say it, an opportunity to reflect and learn. Would you dismiss offensive language used towards other groups as being 'hurty words'? Or would you be willing to consider that language matters and the language being used could be preventing the effective communication of a message?

If you can't cope with someone saying 'Could people please stop...', best stay away from AIBU and most social media platforms. 'Could people please stop...' is pretty tame on the internet.

@LoremIpsumCici you weren't given an @ or a direct quote, but there are a couple of posts there that look to be directed towards you. Just letting you know.

Assuming the bold is yours, please stop. You really know very little about WW2.

I was just thinking that.

Yes the bold was @RAplusOne

Helpful if you correct me. This is a Forum. Go for it. What did I say that was incorrect?

I was disagreeing with a claim that ....

1. WW2 ended because of diplomacy. My view was that WW2 ended because of one side inflicting unimaginable overwhelming destruction and the very real threats of unending casualties on their enemy (Atom Bomb in Far East, Total annihilation in Germany)

1. Enemies can't later become friends. My view is that despite the above Germany & UK transitioned from mortal enemies into NATO allies within a few short years. Similar for USA & Japan.

Apologies for not knowing what the quote button was

@RAplusOne

Generally quotes or copy and paste go into italics.

The "bomber will get through" and carpet bombing dogma adopted by the allies during WW2 was very much a prewar 1920s strategy, in no way a response to Germany. It claimed heavy civilian casualties would force an enemy to surrender without the need for a ground invasion. With the exception of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan it has never proved successful.

This bombing strategy lead Britain to neglect it's fighter defense force until the rearmament in 1936.

Chamberlain knew Germany were likely to bring war down on Europe. "Peace in our time" bought a bit of breathing space to continue the rearmament.

Hitler insisted that the first jets were developed as bombers. By the time they were introduced it was far too little too late.

Germany surrendered because of the ground invasion not directly due bombing.

Germany and Britain were far from "mortal enemies". Hitler admired the British, (I seem to recall that he considered us part of the aryan brotherhood). He hoped they would be allies or at least neutral.

WW2 didn't really "free" very many people. Arguably more people were left under imposed regimes than beforehand.

The history of Europe is pretty well established, with nuances for sure, so if you wanted to base your views on facts there are many good books on the subject. These threads are very good. I'd suggest Europe, A History, by Norman Davies, The Silk Roads, by Peter Frankopan, and because of the incredible parallels to the present conflict Crimea, by Orlando Figes.

Sadly too many global leaders seem to be pretty unfazed to annihilation, even of their own side, until it threatens there own skin.

You see us burn you stay silent.

The world isn't silent, they are trying to get to a place so that their UN resolutions can take place.

My premonition - check back in a few month or years

1. Palestine's people (The PA?) separates / distances itself from their Hamas tyrants. This is often a key catalyst in these sorts of conflicts.
2. Palestine or a non terrorist representative engage in UN peace talks.
3. The World clambers over one another to help these talks succeed.
4. An agreement is reached where ALL of the resolution can be met by ALL parties.
5. Massive aid flows in to Palestine via non Hamas routes that actually goes to the people rather than the Billionaires overflowing bank accounts.
6. Peace in Gaza.
7. Road map for longer term peace in the region, 2 state solution etc, begins once the immediate threats are diminished.

some slow but progress that needs to pick up more support .... www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4vw1l8xvdo

I hope you're right. Right now I can't see there being a Gaza to save.

As you can see from the thread, many of the posters have been concerned about the children suffering in Africa, the concentration camps in China, human rights abuses and people in need around the world, and have a history of being actively involved in helping people in need. Therefore, I'm not sure what's "well said" about a post that accuses people of not having cared about these issues...?

Actually it was me that raised the issue about the children being butchered in Africa and put in concentration camps in China and about doing humanitarian work... the same person whose posts your were attacking @Scirocco . 🤦🏻‍♀️

Are you going to keep ignoring religious extremists in Israel. The ones in their government inflaming this? The lunatic settlers?

Except I didn't, did I? Read my post from 19 October at 22:19.

Not everybody is delusional with religion you know. Some people actually try to look at situations objectively rather than pitting people against each other based on their beliefs in invisible beings.

Israel might even do their bit by ending the genocide and siege.

Gosh no because apparently that's holding them to a higher standard than we would expect from any other country!