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Conflict in the Middle East

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Original poster

"You see us burning, you stay silent..."

345 replies

Scirocco · 19/10/2024 16:37

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr54y0qplgvo

Please, read, listen and see what is being done to innocent people here.

Remember them.

Now, perhaps more than at any previous time in history, we can easily know the human cost of hate and violence, and the human cost of looking away.

Remember them. And remember all the other innocent people who have died and continue to die because of hatred and because of apathy.

A selfie taken by Sha'aban al-Dalou showing him and his family. He is a young man of 19 in a blue t-shirt, standing in the foreground, with six relatives aged from childhood to middle age smiling behind him. Some of the children are making thumbs-up ge...

'You see us burning, you stay silent': Family’s agony over mother and sons burned to death in Gaza tent

Ahmed al-Dalou lost his wife and two sons after an Israeli strike burned their tent near Gaza’s Al-Aqsa hospital.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr54y0qplgvo

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:20

Because Egypt does not want to be seen as complicit in Israel's population redistribution plans especially now we see the Likud party organizing settlement conferences.

So their political objectives are more important than any humanitarian concerns: exactly.

Limesodaagain · 19/10/2024 22:28

Scirocco · 19/10/2024 16:37

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr54y0qplgvo

Please, read, listen and see what is being done to innocent people here.

Remember them.

Now, perhaps more than at any previous time in history, we can easily know the human cost of hate and violence, and the human cost of looking away.

Remember them. And remember all the other innocent people who have died and continue to die because of hatred and because of apathy.

This is one of the most terrible and tragic events in a conflict that has had far too many terrible events. It’s hurts to read . That beautiful family.
I sincerely hope their terrible suffering will change hearts and help to bring an end to this conflict .

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:29

I think the poster was saying that, even if the people dying in Palestine and Lebanon are many miles away, they are still people, like you, like me, like all of us. So we should care when such awful things are being done to them.

Okay. So have you been this concerned about the children living in an ongoing war in Congo for the last 20 years or so? How about the children dying of starvation and malaria and under brutal regimes in east Africa? What concern are you expressing about the Chinese concentration camps?

Suddenly everyone's so concerned about the children but were quite happy to get on with their lives while children have been being butchered, abused, kidnapped, raped, murdered, tortured, starved to death in many places on Earth throughout you life but nobody seemed to give a damn about that. Suddenly everyone is so concerned and trying to behave holier than though about it and demanding we do something. What exactly? A small insigificant country in another area of the world that has very little influence over this whatsoever despite its astonishing remaining delusions of grandeur. And how come you didn't campaign for it previously, if you have some kind of solution in mind? Why do these kids matter but none of the others did/ do?

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:36

Sorry, holier than thou. Autocorrect and much tiredness so probably many typos. I just find this hand wringing so tiresome and pointless and also rather disingenuous in many cases, especially when people start banging in about religion as if it's some kind of comfort when that is one of the fundamental causes of the violence, as has always been the case in that part of the world in particular and will continue to be until it is separated entirely from any political/ governmental structures and relegated, as it should be, to a private matter that has no relevance to public life.

Silence1 · 19/10/2024 22:38

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:20

Because Egypt does not want to be seen as complicit in Israel's population redistribution plans especially now we see the Likud party organizing settlement conferences.

So their political objectives are more important than any humanitarian concerns: exactly.

They let 100000 in. Out of interest have you read the testimony from people who have had to leave? Leaving the homes they love, their memories, their pot plants, their photographs, their pets - everything left behind and destroyed because the Israel Govt, army and some/most? of its population loves crushing Palestinian lives. They have a doctrine they follow - Dahiya Doctrine.
Countries like the USA and UK should be calling Israel out on it rather than people saying can everybody move out of the way for Israel to destroy everything and also killing anyone remaining.
It's so sick and arse about face.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 19/10/2024 22:40

I think there are a few who relentlessly argue in favour of anything Israel does, on these threads, sometimes as a derailing tactic. The same argument over and over. I said this before but was deleted, presumably for supposed antisemitism, which is not the case.

Anyone these days knows full well that the Israeli government care nothing about the scandals they are causing. Many Jewish people agree, worldwide.

Original poster
Scirocco · 19/10/2024 22:41

Firstgenfunc · 19/10/2024 22:01

I think the issue is that people feel powerless. It’s not that they don’t care. They feel helpless to do anything and so they distance themselves from it because it is unbearable to always be aware of that suffering and unable to do anything to change it. (Except make a donation, sign a petition, things which can feel pitifully small).

Islam teaches that, if we can make a difference through our actions, we should try to do so. If we can't act, but can make a difference through our words, then we should try to do so. And if we can't do that (eg if it's not safe to speak out), then we can still hold the knowledge and our own feelings inside, and make a difference within our own hearts.

Even small actions carry ripples outward. A single name on a petition might not seem like much, but when there are 10,000 names, that's harder for the world to ignore. A kind word to a person struggling with grief can help them get through the day, take care of their family and keep going. Making a single spending decision based on ethics might only be a few pounds going to a local shop instead of a multinational corporation, but when there are thousands of people spending their few pounds locally, local businesses start to feel the benefits.

OP posts:
Martymcfly24 · 19/10/2024 22:43

@marmaladeandpeanutbutter you are so right I was going to respond to the poster above and then realized that was exactly their aim because now instead of talking about the absolute horror of the link the amazing @Scirocco posted we are now engaging in another pointless back and forth which is how these types of threads go.

So to get back on topic that is a devastating article. Absolutely awful and heartbreaking.

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:50

Countries like the USA and UK should be calling Israel out on it rather than people saying can everybody move out of the way for Israel to destroy everything and also killing anyone remaining.

Why countries like the USA and UK, out of all of the countries in the world?

The USA I could just about grasp but the UK is a small country on the outskirts of a totally separate continent that isn't affiliated with either of the religions involved.

Do people make random comments like Venezuela should be intervening, surely? Or Ghana? Or Switzerland? Or New Zealand?

Why do you think the UK should be intervening in this? If it does intervene in the Middle East, misguidedly, it always ends in disaster and then it is heavily criticised for doing so.

Obviously what is happening there is horrible, and we should send some humanitarian aid as should all countries around the world. But why single out the UK as apparently needing to somehow fix rival warring religious regimes on a different continent? We are told to leave them to it but if we do that's wrong also.

And again, why aren't the neighbouring countries resolving it? Why are you not concerned for the people being treated just as brutally in many other countries on Earth? What concern have you expressed about that, or were you oblivious to it? Should the little UK somehow fix all of that too? How?

What is it you think the UK should have done? It's madness to think they care one bit about our opinion on it.

Original poster
Scirocco · 19/10/2024 22:52

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:29

I think the poster was saying that, even if the people dying in Palestine and Lebanon are many miles away, they are still people, like you, like me, like all of us. So we should care when such awful things are being done to them.

Okay. So have you been this concerned about the children living in an ongoing war in Congo for the last 20 years or so? How about the children dying of starvation and malaria and under brutal regimes in east Africa? What concern are you expressing about the Chinese concentration camps?

Suddenly everyone's so concerned about the children but were quite happy to get on with their lives while children have been being butchered, abused, kidnapped, raped, murdered, tortured, starved to death in many places on Earth throughout you life but nobody seemed to give a damn about that. Suddenly everyone is so concerned and trying to behave holier than though about it and demanding we do something. What exactly? A small insigificant country in another area of the world that has very little influence over this whatsoever despite its astonishing remaining delusions of grandeur. And how come you didn't campaign for it previously, if you have some kind of solution in mind? Why do these kids matter but none of the others did/ do?

What have I done personally?

Well, I trained in healthcare and went to work in conflict zones and disaster areas around the world. I went and treated the children with malaria and malnutrition and helped make sure fewer of them died.

I've campaigned for the rights of innocent people around the world, including in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

I've built wells to provide water for communities.

I've worked and volunteered with refugees and survivors of torture and human trafficking.

I've supported fundraising initiatives for people in need around the world.

I've done inter-faith/cross-community work to break down barriers between groups.

Along with friends and colleagues, I've risked my life and seen my friends die to protect innocent people.

OP posts:
Martymcfly24 · 19/10/2024 22:53

Scirocco · 19/10/2024 22:41

Islam teaches that, if we can make a difference through our actions, we should try to do so. If we can't act, but can make a difference through our words, then we should try to do so. And if we can't do that (eg if it's not safe to speak out), then we can still hold the knowledge and our own feelings inside, and make a difference within our own hearts.

Even small actions carry ripples outward. A single name on a petition might not seem like much, but when there are 10,000 names, that's harder for the world to ignore. A kind word to a person struggling with grief can help them get through the day, take care of their family and keep going. Making a single spending decision based on ethics might only be a few pounds going to a local shop instead of a multinational corporation, but when there are thousands of people spending their few pounds locally, local businesses start to feel the benefits.

Show quote history

Lovely post, especially when you can despair you are not doing enough.

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:54

@Scirocco I've done international humanitarian work, too.

Hasn't fixed any of this though, has it? It is treating the symptoms, not the cause.

Elopelo · 19/10/2024 22:55

Sometimes I think what could possibly be worse than what Israel is doing right now… then I see certain views being expressed, which try to justify or cover up or deflect these very actions of Israel and that’s when it hits me… in a terribly perverse way- worse than all the bombings and burnings and butchering of innocent people- are these views held by actual human beings. It seems like far from having the right to their land, the right to life, the right to freedom and security and happiness, the Palestinians don’t even have the right to suffer or lament? Their suffering has to be compared to others? Their suffering has to be diluted by considering the suffering of others? For God’s sake, if you have such hatred/indifference to the Palestinians, please please please stay away from these threads.

SummerFeverVenice · 19/10/2024 22:58

workingtowards · 19/10/2024 22:16

It’s so hard to witness. I have been giving to the Disasters Emergency Committee. It’s the only way I can think to help in any real way. https://www.dec.org.uk

I have been as well as to UNICEF

Elopelo · 19/10/2024 22:59

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:50

Countries like the USA and UK should be calling Israel out on it rather than people saying can everybody move out of the way for Israel to destroy everything and also killing anyone remaining.

Why countries like the USA and UK, out of all of the countries in the world?

The USA I could just about grasp but the UK is a small country on the outskirts of a totally separate continent that isn't affiliated with either of the religions involved.

Do people make random comments like Venezuela should be intervening, surely? Or Ghana? Or Switzerland? Or New Zealand?

Why do you think the UK should be intervening in this? If it does intervene in the Middle East, misguidedly, it always ends in disaster and then it is heavily criticised for doing so.

Obviously what is happening there is horrible, and we should send some humanitarian aid as should all countries around the world. But why single out the UK as apparently needing to somehow fix rival warring religious regimes on a different continent? We are told to leave them to it but if we do that's wrong also.

And again, why aren't the neighbouring countries resolving it? Why are you not concerned for the people being treated just as brutally in many other countries on Earth? What concern have you expressed about that, or were you oblivious to it? Should the little UK somehow fix all of that too? How?

What is it you think the UK should have done? It's madness to think they care one bit about our opinion on it.

Sorry I can’t resist…

You have got to be joking right? You’re seriously asking why should the UK get involved? 99% of the responsibility for this disaster is the UK’s- ever heard of the British mandate in Palestine and how they very kindly decided to take a whole land off a people and give it to another?

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:59

Islam teaches that, if we can make a difference through our actions, we should try to do so

Well, we're certainly witnessing the "difference" it can make play out when we look at the barbaric regimes that are governed by this religious doctrine. Like the vast majority of societies governed by religious regimes throughout history, the poor people subjected to them live in brutal and cruel conditions and have pretty miserable lives compared to those who have been freed from religion being imposed on their societies and political institutions. That isn't a coincidence.

Elopelo · 19/10/2024 23:01

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:59

Islam teaches that, if we can make a difference through our actions, we should try to do so

Well, we're certainly witnessing the "difference" it can make play out when we look at the barbaric regimes that are governed by this religious doctrine. Like the vast majority of societies governed by religious regimes throughout history, the poor people subjected to them live in brutal and cruel conditions and have pretty miserable lives compared to those who have been freed from religion being imposed on their societies and political institutions. That isn't a coincidence.

Well I assume from your views that you’re not religious but unfortunately you’re still displaying some level of barbarity and cruelty by constantly dehumanising the Palestinians as is evidenced throughout your posts, so you’re not really doing a good job of advocating the moral superiority of non belief/secularism/ whatever you want to call it.

Original poster
Scirocco · 19/10/2024 23:02

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:54

@Scirocco I've done international humanitarian work, too.

Hasn't fixed any of this though, has it? It is treating the symptoms, not the cause.

Treating symptoms is better than doing nothing and leaving people to suffer.

Even if the only thing you can do is hold in your heart that what is happening is wrong, that's still worth doing. The things we hold in our hearts shape how we go on to act - it's probably better for ourselves and those around us, for us to hold on to compassion for others and a recognition of right and wrong, rather than cynicism, dismissiveness or hate.

OP posts:
SummerFeverVenice · 19/10/2024 23:04

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 22:59

Islam teaches that, if we can make a difference through our actions, we should try to do so

Well, we're certainly witnessing the "difference" it can make play out when we look at the barbaric regimes that are governed by this religious doctrine. Like the vast majority of societies governed by religious regimes throughout history, the poor people subjected to them live in brutal and cruel conditions and have pretty miserable lives compared to those who have been freed from religion being imposed on their societies and political institutions. That isn't a coincidence.

This collective amnesia about the USSR and Mao’s China is endlessly fascinating. These were the top 2 most brutal and oppressive regimes in history that literally murdered hundreds of millions of people and guess what? Religion was forbidden. Banned. In all forms.

SummerFeverVenice · 19/10/2024 23:06

Scirocco · 19/10/2024 23:02

Treating symptoms is better than doing nothing and leaving people to suffer.

Even if the only thing you can do is hold in your heart that what is happening is wrong, that's still worth doing. The things we hold in our hearts shape how we go on to act - it's probably better for ourselves and those around us, for us to hold on to compassion for others and a recognition of right and wrong, rather than cynicism, dismissiveness or hate.

Show quote history

Yes, every life saved or improved is worthwhile.

The idea that we should do nothing because we can’t fix everything is amoral to the core.

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 23:07

Sorry I can’t resist…

You have got to be joking right? You’re seriously asking why should the UK get involved? 99% of the responsibility for this disaster is the UK’s- ever heard of the British mandate in Palestine and how the very kindly decided to take a whole land off a people and give it to another?

I'm well aware of the history of the region but if you actually believe "99% of the responsibility for this disaster is the UK's" then I am afraid you are completely delusional.

What do you think happened after WW2 with much land in Europe? Do you see us all still fighting over previous borders and launching rockets at each other? Division of land after wars has happened all over the place throughout history after conflicts. People don't generally decide to continue fighting the same wars in perpetuity. The reason there is no settled peace is because none of them want it because they are all religious extremists. So they will continue, backwards and forwards.

The UK is told to withdraw from its previous international presence and not interfere yet you now wish it to do what? Interfere again?

The cognitive dissonance is mind-boggling. The British Empire is gone. This is a small and insignificant island in the North Atlantic and resolving a war between countries on a different continent - some involved being nuclear powers themselves - is not something we could do even if we wanted to.

Dulra · 19/10/2024 23:08

SummerFeverVenice · 19/10/2024 23:04

This collective amnesia about the USSR and Mao’s China is endlessly fascinating. These were the top 2 most brutal and oppressive regimes in history that literally murdered hundreds of millions of people and guess what? Religion was forbidden. Banned. In all forms.

Show quote history

Yes it's about control and power and whatever they can use to secure it.

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 23:10

This collective amnesia about the USSR and Mao’s China is endlessly fascinating. These were the top 2 most brutal and oppressive regimes in history that literally murdered hundreds of millions of people and guess what? Religion was forbidden. Banned. In all forms.

They had their own extremist ideologies that were just as corrosive as religion. China has concentration camps again right now.

Religion was brought up in this context because it IS the cause of the endless brutality in the Middle East. Obviously all extremists are just as bad. And encroachment of ideology onto society always results in horrific outcomes. History tells it all as plain as day.

Ohlaylaylayla · 19/10/2024 23:11

Meh. Israel leaders are evil. Palestinian leaders are evil. We can’t sort the whole world out.

SummerFeverVenice · 19/10/2024 23:13

SunriseMonsters · 19/10/2024 23:10

This collective amnesia about the USSR and Mao’s China is endlessly fascinating. These were the top 2 most brutal and oppressive regimes in history that literally murdered hundreds of millions of people and guess what? Religion was forbidden. Banned. In all forms.

They had their own extremist ideologies that were just as corrosive as religion. China has concentration camps again right now.

Religion was brought up in this context because it IS the cause of the endless brutality in the Middle East. Obviously all extremists are just as bad. And encroachment of ideology onto society always results in horrific outcomes. History tells it all as plain as day.

I was responding to this gem of infantile wisdom:
”Like the vast majority of societies governed by religious regimes throughout history, the poor people subjected to them live in brutal and cruel conditions and have pretty miserable lives compared to those who have been freed from religion being imposed on their societies and political institutions. That isn't a coincidence.”

The comparison is of miserable lives compared to just as miserable lives. You implied an ahistorical utopia that exists only in fiction.