What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

And a more contemporary view from our cousins across the pond:

Crucially, antisemites believe they are punching up. And unlike other forms of bigotry, antisemitism shape-shifts to reflect societal prejudices. So, Jews have been demonized as both capitalists and communists, too religious and too assimilated.

Additionally, far-left antisemitism deserved more attention. Far-right antisemitism, of course, remains reprehensible, but it’s readily identifiable. More people struggle to recognize far-left antisemitism, which has historically cloaked Jew-hatred in the language of social justice.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/you-cant-fight-antisemitism-while-ignoring-its-supporters-on-the-left#google_vignette

The Jew-hatred hiding behind social justice is particularly apparent with the current conflict.

• *Now I’m curious @Notsuretoputit , did you read the survey about islamophobia and how you feel about that?

I only ask because you brought it up and then ignored the article.

@ Notsuretoputit
You're left wing and from your posts I conclude that you are not antisemitic.

Special as you may be, I don't think that you are unique.

So be prepared to accept that other lefties, just like you are also not antisemites.

But what about the ones that are? Why are there soo many on the left?

Thus spake Notsuretoputit
"But what about the ones (antisemites) that are? Why are there soo many on the left?"

But not nearly as many as there are amongst the 17,400,000 who voted leave. If you're serious about tackling antisemitism, look there, amongst the hoards, not amongst the relatively few socialists and communists, otherwise it will appear that all you want to do is just a bit of lefty bashing.

I read the final report before it was posted here.

It isn’t really relevant. The only question which breaks down attitudes to Muslim people by political party in any similar way to the CAAS survey is ‘There are areas of Britain which operate under Sharia law where non-Muslims are not able to enter’, and 43.4% of Conservatives agree with the statement as opposed to 14.7% of Labour, which is entirely what I would except. Most Labour voters are proudly anti-racist, except for, for a significant minority, when it comes to the Jewish community.

I don’t think it’s a very good comparison though, survey to survey. It doesn’t examine attitudes by Party to Muslim people themselves rather than to scaremongering stories.

Fuck’s sake. You sound like the people who stamped their feet when it was pointed out that the Labour Party has a problem with sexism because the Conservatives are worse.

I am left wing. I campaign for a left wing Party every week. I give up hours of time volunteering to do roles within it. And I can see clearly that the left has a problem with antisemitism.

You can criticise the left for its shortcomings. ‘Let’s ignore racism on our side because those leave voters are bigger racists’ is pathetic. Standing up for what’s right isn’t just running about saying ‘I’m at anti-racist’ then enthusiastically ignoring it when it’s not coming from the right.

@Notsuretoputit
Here is a counter argument in the first article below. I’ve posted it before but I might have missed your reply to it previously and my comments relating to it and your original post.

I also agree with @AdamRyan and @mollyfolk

I can’t seem how it’s antisemitic to criticise the Israeli government’s actions both in Gaza, and to also acknowledge how the Israeli government has allowed to Hamas to grow at the expense of the PLO. If Hamas had not been strengthened and if real diplomatic effort was made to support PLO to create a 2 state solution would the current conflict be happening? This is in reference to your below comment. Please also see that this has been acknowledged by the Times of Israel!

“Yes, I think you’re antisemitic. Or at least your comments are. You are blaming Israel - the world’s only Jewish state - for the crimes of Hamas.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

I have never said that criticising the Israeli government is antisemitic. Claiming they’re committing genocide, war crimes, an apartheid regime etc is.

I read the Times of Israel piece when it first came out. It was the day after the terrorist attack. An Israeli Jew writing about how hurt and angry and let down she feels by Israel’s government the day after such a national tragedy I think is understandable and she has every right to have those feelings in her country about her government.

You can’t categorically say that genocide is not happening- that can only be done in a court of law. I have seen lawyers and UN representatives say that war crimes appear to have been committed. Even the US has expressed the need for caution- presumably due to concerns about war crimes? However if it walks talks like a duck…

There is truth to the article though, even if it was written in pain? She’s not been alone in expressing the same concerns.

What are your thoughts on the first article?

Notsuretoputit said
"I have never said that criticising the Israeli government is antisemitic. Claiming they’re committing genocide, war crimes, an apartheid regime etc is."

Now you've established that certain terms or phrases are not acceptable when describing Israel's actions, which of the following words or phrases can I use about the country without being accused of antisemitism ?

Pitiless, disproportionate response, brutally violent, indiscriminate killing, wreckless, revenge, retribution, inhumane, lacking compassion, cruel, viscious, carnage.

Please advise, thank you.

I’ve never said anti-Zionism was antisemitic.

There are many threads on which you can argue about the current conflict. This is about the left and it’s problem with antisemitism.

There are plenty of threads you can go on to wage your war on Israel having the audacity to defend itself where it will be on topic.

@Notsuretoputit
There are plenty of threads you can go on to wage your war on Israel having the audacity to defend itself where it will be on topic.

I was simply continuing a train of thought which you yourself had set in motion. It was you that alluded to there being certain phrases that you deemed "acceptable", I was merely seeking clarification as to what they were.

And as for Israel having the "audacity to defend itself"! Wow, you've fallen for that narrative, hook, line and sinker. It is no longer "defence", it is an indiscriminate, destructive, slaughter and before I'm accused of being a Jew-Hater, I would apply those terms to any nation that behaved that way, whether it were a Jewish state or any other.

And so many on the right too. And in other categories. Do you not mind those?

I think the issue is more that in various walks of life there are people who are antisemitic. And of course there's that issue with MSM when they exaggerated the antisemitism in the labour party.

TBF that response does make it look like you're not really keen on someone challenging with a different viewpoint backed up with facts.

And so many on the right too

People generally expect there to be racists on the right. The issue with antisemitism on the left is that they're supposed to be both anti-racist, and better than that.

I don't think saying Israel is committing genocide or war crimes is antisemitic, comparing what they're doing to the Holocaust or saying that they're like Nazis is. Because that particularly focuses on them being Jews in a way designed to cause pain.

This. You don't get to call yourself an anti-racist when your anti-racism is highly selective.

Antisemitism on the right I find easier to take because they wear it on their sleeve. It's easier to identify, therefore easier to call out. On the left it's more insidious and covert and hidden under various coded guises. They're the ones I'm scared of.

I don't think saying Israel is committing genocide or war crimes is antisemitic, comparing what they're doing to the Holocaust or saying that they're like Nazis is. Because that particularly focuses on them being Jews in a way designed to cause pain.

And agree with this actually. But terminology needs to be used accurately too.

What is the accurate terminology for Israeli factions that are pursuing a goal of Iraeli territory only being for Jewish people I.e. against a two state solution?
Even writing that felt clunky, but there appears to be no acceptable way to say it easily. Which I think is part of the problem

What is the accurate terminology for saying you don't agree with the ferocity of the Israeli response to 7/10, without sounding like you are against Israels right to defend itself?

I think its impossible to discuss because there is no acceptable terminology as everything gets coopted by antisemitism or bad faith actors making political gain. It reminds me of the gender debates in that sense. We have no words to be able to discuss things.

@Notsuretoputit why is saying that Israel has committed war crimes anti-semitic?
Or that there could be a genocide happening right now or a risk of genocide?
Or that they are moving closer to being seen as a apartheid state
Israels former MP said similar words regarding apartheid. Does that make him anti-semitic?
I don't agree with that at all

I wasn't aware that you were an expert on what constitutes a genocide, war crimes or apartheid and what is antisemitism.
So if I criticise the Israeli government (which I do), I am not antisemitic but if I state ( after arming myself with facts) that the Israeli government is responsible for war crimes, I am?

For reference from Israels former PM
We can’t afford to continue to live under circumstances where there are millions of people without rights which we occupy without giving them the basic elementary rights that they deserve. It’s as simple as day,” he told me. “I feel that we’re coming close to the point where Israel will be perceived as an apartheid country.”

Absolutely!