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Conflict in the Middle East

What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

1000 replies

Notsuretoputit · 10/12/2023 18:34

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

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Offwiththecircus · 14/12/2023 11:19

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 11:14

@Offwiththecircus the interview with Ehud Olmert was prior to the war. He isn't squeaky clean himself but does give a insight into the divide that Netanyahu caused including some of his extreme and controversial policies that many Israelis were against too

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/3/16/23639947/palestine-netanyahu-israel-protests-ehud-olmert

thanks -will read when have a mo

twilightmoon3 · 14/12/2023 11:30

kesstrel · 14/12/2023 10:56

A big problem for the left is how to explain Jewish success. There has long been a commitment on the militant left to IQ being meaningless, non-science etc as an explanation for differences between groups.

But the most obvious reason is that Ashkenazi verbal IQ is on average 120 points or more, a very significant increase from the average. Whether this is cultural or genetic is irrelevant. Many on the left can't accept this as the primary cause of Jewish success, because their worldview won't stand for it.

Which makes them vulnerable to resentment, conspiracy theories and other lurking antisemitic tropes, even if for many these are not openly recognised or acknowledged.

t

You are going down a dangerous alleyway with that reasoning with race and IQ. If you widen that you may find yourself in bed with pretty nasty bedfellows. That said I've never met a stupid Jew or an unfriendly Muslim make of that what you will.

braticus · 14/12/2023 11:36

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 11:10

This isn't a war. Israel is targeting civilians who can't defend themselves.

The IDF is fighting Hamas though. It's not civilians killing the IDF soldiers.

Did you see the report of the IDF opening fire on women, children and a newborn baby inside a school? It seems Hamas is targeting the IDF, while the IDF is targeting civilians.

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 11:43

So who is killing the IDF then? They had the most losses they have had in the last week? You make it sound as if there is no combat or no rockets being fired into Israel? Hamas continue to use civilian areas for combat and then painting the picture of a the continuing humanitarian disaster. They are choosing to do that.

Imagine if they just stopped fighting. Released the hostages or their bodies and negotiated.

Israel have approached Egypt about negotiating another ceasefire its been reported Today.

What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict
twilightmoon3 · 14/12/2023 11:47

Plus the whole Ashkhenanzi theory is an anti-Semitic trope in itself. It says European Jewry is descended from these converts and are not Semites with links to the Holy Land and thus are usurpers to the indigenous Palestinians.

braticus · 14/12/2023 11:47

@stomachameleon Hamas is killing the IDF. Although according to the IDF, the IDF also seem to be accidentally killing each other too.

Hamas has released videos of them taking out IDF soldiers and tanks while the IDF have released video of their soldiers shooting up empty rooms. It’s embarrassing.

I have, however, seen plenty of videos of the IDF shooting defenceless children in the back.

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 11:47

@YetAnotherSpartacus could you maybe summarise or post the key points please? It's behind a pay wall

twilightmoon3 · 14/12/2023 11:48

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 11:47

@YetAnotherSpartacus could you maybe summarise or post the key points please? It's behind a pay wall

Simon Schama: Let us be, to grieve, rage, weep
In the face of lethal peril, help for Jews has always been conditional

The writer is an FT contributing editor. His latest book is ‘Foreign Bodies: Pandemics, Vaccines and the Health of Nations’

Confronted with enormity: murdered infants, abducted grandmothers, slaughtered villagers, lusty chants of “gas the Jews” at the Free Palestine demonstration in Sydney, mere words feel like weak carriers of so much horror and sorrow. Journalistic bloviation on the cause of this and the effect of that seems an indecency, at least until the bodies are gathered and returned to families. So context me no contexts, analyse me no analyses, suspend your partially informed diagnoses; leave off your strenuous efforts at even-handedness. Let us be, to grieve, rage, weep; say the mourners’ kaddish.

Perhaps images, then, not words? Of terrified young people who in a trice went from dancing to frantic running in a futile attempt to escape the spray of bullets; of a kibbutz dog shot as it emerged from a house (that must have helped Free Palestine); a young woman with bloody marks staining her sweatpants as she is bundled away by captors; a knife lying on a sofa in the kibbutz Be’eri, where 10 per cent of the population were killed; or visual evidence of “resistance” like the video of Mor Bayder’s murdered grandmother uploaded by her killers to Mor’s Facebook page.

Sympathy, for the moment, abounds, for as the writer Dara Horn pointed out in the title of her unsparing book of essays, People Love Dead Jews; living ones, especially should we have the temerity to defend ourselves, not so much. There is, rightly, sympathy too for the Palestinians of Gaza who are also victims and prisoners of Hamas and do not deserve to be punished for the wickedness perpetrated by their fanatical tyrants, nor for the delusion that the deaths of Jewish families will make Israel disappear.

We do not disappear. But we do suffer. The great Columbia University historian Salo Wittmayer Baron spent his career inveighing against the fatalism of what he called “the lachrymose conception” of Jewish history. I myself have made an effort to go with the positive: to celebrate the poetry, music, religious and secular literature of the diaspora; to think about Jewish history with the human smoke of Auschwitz blown away by time and education.

But this now seems an idle hope. From reports all over the world in the days following the massacres last weekend, it is obvious that the spectacle of dead Jews can still excite, rather than restrain, antisemitism.

Apparently it still needs saying that Zionism is not the cause, but the consequence, of perennial, dehumanising, antisemitism. The massacre of Jews not only long predates Zionism but is a constant fact of diaspora existence. Jews were attacked and exterminated in both the Muslim and Christian medieval worlds: six thousand butchered in Fez in 1033; thousands more in Almoravid Granada in 1066; the entire community of York in 1190. A friend of mine, currently in Spain, tells me almost all of the rarefied intellectuals she has encountered have been adamant that the victims were to blame, which, given the murder of thousands of Jews in 1391, is a bit rich.

Nor was this persecution really about religion. Survivors who converted were, for all their professions of Christian faith, still tortured and burnt alive by an Inquisition suspicious that their blood was too impure for salvation. So Jews have been murdered for being too separate and murdered for being not separate enough. They were killed in vast numbers by Cossacks in 1648; by Russian pogroms in the 19th and 20th centuries. In 1899 an anti-Dreyfusard journal asked its readers what they would like to do with Jews. The responses were enthusiastic and ingenious: use them as targets for new artillery, turn them into dog food and, needless to say, gas them.

In the face of lethal peril, help has been conditional. Children were rescued by the Kindertransport on condition of being separated from their parents, many of whom they would never see again. A conference on “refugees” was held in Bermuda in 1943, when the Final Solution was known, basically on condition the word “Jew” was never mentioned. It was this lose/lose situation that moved Theodor Herzl, the father of modern Zionism, prophetic about a coming annihilation, to insist that in the end Jews must count only on themselves for their protection.

That core Zionist article of faith collapsed last Saturday, not least because of the Netanyahu government’s obstinate refusal to listen to Israel’s security chiefs, who warned him that the safety of the country was being imperilled by policies that were dangerously divisive. Whatever the immediate unity of the country, his days as prime minister are numbered and his legacy will forever be this catastrophe. But that inevitable departure will not staunch the tears, bring back the dead or heal the trauma. And should there be a ground invasion, innocent Palestinian and Jewish lives will pay a terrible price, not that Hamas cares about either.

But Israel will survive, revive. If only because, even in this dreadful extremity, one text from Deuteronomy, 30. 19 lies at the indefatigably beating heart of Jewish history:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, a blessing and a curse: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 11:55

@twilightmoon3 thank you

floodlightonwhatisright · 14/12/2023 11:56

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 09:49

See I read this as pretty anti-Muslim
This conflict isn't Muslims v. Jews and talking about it like that is pretty inflammatory. If anything, it is in fact more akin to a civil war between religious factions.

"Courting the Muslim vote" (a.k.a. "representing your constituents") does not lead to antisemitism. Antisemitism is racism. Trying to win votes from racists doesn't tend to be a feature of any moderate parties, left or right.

I'm going to be interested to see what our politicians do over the next few days. With the Israeli government being explicit that a two state solution is not acceptable to them, and the US being equally hard line that two states has to be part of the solution, I think its about to become much more acceptable to call for a ceasefire without upsetting our allies. Will be interesting to see if either Sunak or Starmer go for it. I thought Sunak was edging more towards that position at PMQs yesterday.

I agree that this conflict is not Jews vs Muslim.

But I can assure you that every Muslim I have spoken to has said something similar to "Jews are killing Muslims." rather than a conflict between Gaza and Israel and they are furious about this.

Just reporting - not my opinion at all.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/12/2023 11:56

Sorry! I don't subscribe but must have got lucky to read it.

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 11:58

@braticus that seems a fair and well balanced assessment Hmm
You have seen lots of footage of the IDF just shooting children in the back?

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 11:59

Did you see the report of the IDF opening fire on women, children and a newborn baby inside a school? It seems Hamas is targeting the IDF, while the IDF is targeting civilians.

Do you have a link to this please?

braticus · 14/12/2023 12:01

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 11:58

@braticus that seems a fair and well balanced assessment Hmm
You have seen lots of footage of the IDF just shooting children in the back?

Yes.

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 12:07

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 10:19

See I read this as pretty anti-Muslim

I don't think it's fair to accuse a poster of being anti-Muslim for making a statement of fact.
Reminds me a bit of the what Kate Osborne tried to do to Kemi Badenoch.

It's not a statement of fact to say labour are antisemitic because they are courting the Muslim vote. Its an opinion. One I think is incorrect and inflammatory.

I don't think its fair to call people antisemitic (racist) for criticising the disproportionately response in Gaza. Plenty of others do though.

Hiddenmnetter · 14/12/2023 12:18

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 09:49

See I read this as pretty anti-Muslim
This conflict isn't Muslims v. Jews and talking about it like that is pretty inflammatory. If anything, it is in fact more akin to a civil war between religious factions.

"Courting the Muslim vote" (a.k.a. "representing your constituents") does not lead to antisemitism. Antisemitism is racism. Trying to win votes from racists doesn't tend to be a feature of any moderate parties, left or right.

I'm going to be interested to see what our politicians do over the next few days. With the Israeli government being explicit that a two state solution is not acceptable to them, and the US being equally hard line that two states has to be part of the solution, I think its about to become much more acceptable to call for a ceasefire without upsetting our allies. Will be interesting to see if either Sunak or Starmer go for it. I thought Sunak was edging more towards that position at PMQs yesterday.

I agree- representing your constituents. That said, I think Islam DOES have a problem with Judaism. It may not be anti-Semitic as such, but when Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Muslim Brotherhood, the Ayotollahs, ISIS…and the list goes on- are all EXPRESSLY Muslim, and EXPRESSLY anti-Semitic, the question of why does Islam provide such fertile ground for anti-semitism is, at the very least, a reasonable question.

Read the Hamas charter- we lay down our foundational principles on Islam, on the true and sound teaching of the Koran, with the Prophet as our example. And then they say that their aim is the global destruction of all Jews..well. There is an issue there.

And the suggestion that the current conflict is a civil war akin to say, the troubles, is very misleading- it’s not a civil war, it’s a war, a conflict between two nations. And yes, it is partly a war between Jews and Muslims, although there are many other currents as well. But the language on the part of Hamas is expressly anti-Semitic, and is couched in the language of Jihad against Jews, and the State of Israel. It is very much an anti-Semitic conflict. The idea that it’s really an “anti-Zionist” conflict and not an anti-Jewish conflict is misleading because the suggestion that it’s just some and not all kinds of Jews that are the issue is false- there was no check done in October. If they were Jews, they were targets.

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 12:28

What are the "two nations" hidden? There is no nation of Palestine. Gaza is not a country. The UN considers the West Bank and Gaza to be Israeli territory as Israel controls the borders.

Did you read the article I linked a couple of pages back? The author specifically talks about the difficulties caused by conflating Judaism with Israel.

And as is common with these posts your last paragraph also applies to Gazans/Palestinians.

"The idea that it’s really an “anti-Hamas” conflict and not an anti-Palestian conflict is misleading because the suggestion that it’s just some and not all kinds of Palestinians that are the issue is false- there are no checks done by IDF. If they are in Gaza, they are targets."

I'm not even getting into the islamophobia of conflating terrorist groups with Muslims. That's a common "islamophobic trope" to use the language often used on here.

Auvergne63 · 14/12/2023 12:38

Pizdietz · 14/12/2023 10:42

your point seems to be doing what you say the pro Palestinian posters are doing. That all the blame is only on one side

I'm saying war is always horrible, but this is a war where everything that happens is paraded as a "war crime" with no acknowledgment of the exceptional conditions under which it is happening.

I don't understand your comment about blame...?

A war crime is a war crime, regardless of the circumstances in which it happened. Explanations yes, excuses no.

Auvergne63 · 14/12/2023 12:47

kesstrel · 14/12/2023 10:56

A big problem for the left is how to explain Jewish success. There has long been a commitment on the militant left to IQ being meaningless, non-science etc as an explanation for differences between groups.

But the most obvious reason is that Ashkenazi verbal IQ is on average 120 points or more, a very significant increase from the average. Whether this is cultural or genetic is irrelevant. Many on the left can't accept this as the primary cause of Jewish success, because their worldview won't stand for it.

Which makes them vulnerable to resentment, conspiracy theories and other lurking antisemitic tropes, even if for many these are not openly recognised or acknowledged.

t

You are straying into a very dangerous territory here. Are you saying that a certain group of people are intellectually superior to others? This rhetoric has been used in the past, hasn't it?
You also seem to not know that there are different types of intelligence and that an IQ is not a fixed measure. It varies from day to day, how you felt when you took the test, if you were unwell at the time etc.

AdamRyan · 14/12/2023 12:48

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 11:43

So who is killing the IDF then? They had the most losses they have had in the last week? You make it sound as if there is no combat or no rockets being fired into Israel? Hamas continue to use civilian areas for combat and then painting the picture of a the continuing humanitarian disaster. They are choosing to do that.

Imagine if they just stopped fighting. Released the hostages or their bodies and negotiated.

Israel have approached Egypt about negotiating another ceasefire its been reported Today.

(From the BBC live feed): Today Israel's ambassador to the UK has said the country would not accept a two-state solution after the war in Gaza ends.
Asked about the prospect of Palestinians having their own state, Tzipi Hotovely told Sky News: "Absolutely no."

So what would the Palestinians be negotiating for exactly?

Israel-Hamas war: Ambassador says Israel will not accept two-state solution

Tzipi Hotovely's comments come as Palestinian militants carried out one of the deadliest single attacks on Israeli soldiers since the Gaza invasion began.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-ambassador-says-israel-will-not-accept-two-state-solution-13029909

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 12:55

And it seems the IDF have still not got the memo that recording themselves making provocative videos isn't helping their image in anyway.
It just gives those who mistrust them further reasons to do so.

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 13:12

@Hiddenmnetter agree. It's is an undeniable fact that antisemitism is prevalent in Islamic countries and amongst Muslim populations outside of Muslim countries because it is a founding aspect of Islam.

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/14/israel-gaza-war-live-updates-hamas-leader-power-palestine

Sunak has said he backs two state solution.

Babyboomtastic · 14/12/2023 13:18

@Hiddenmnetter

Read the Hamas charter- we lay down our foundational principles on Islam, on the true and sound teaching of the Koran, with the Prophet as our example. And then they say that their aim is the global destruction of all Jews..well. There is an issue there.

I did.
Both the original and amended charter.
It doesn't say that at all.

The revised charter specifically says it's issue is with Israel and not about Jewish people in general. The original doesn't say this and is much more gung-ho but talks about their aim of peaceful coexistence of Muslims, Jews and Christians (under Muslim rule of course...)

Killing all Jews may be what some members want but pretending a document says something it doesn't isn't helping anyone and is just spreading misinformation.

Either you have read it yourself and you are using to spread misinformation here

Or

You've heard from someone who heard from someone about what it says

Or

I'm wrong and I've missed a key clause.

If it's the third then please can you give me the relevant source and I'll retract this post as I don't want to be spreading misinformation myself.

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 13:20

@stomachameleon Anti-semitism is a founding aspect of Islam?
You are going to have to elaborate on that because as a Muslim this is certainly news to me

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