What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

The left has always been anti-Semitic, although I don’t know if that’s expressly about their being left, as much as it is anti-semitism being fairly ubiquitous. Even George Orwell makes the point in 1984 about Russia being anti-Semitic. But then again, id say that’s less to do with the left wing, and more to do with the history of anti-semitism in Russia.

In the UK today, I would say that the Labour Party’s problem with anti-semitism ultimately comes from courting the Muslim vote. The Gaza/Israel conflict may actually result in another Tory win, because it looks like Labour are tearing themselves apart over it. The Labour representation of the Muslim population in England seems pretty near total. And the Muslim population (naturally) is sympathetic to the Muslim side of the conflict.

That all said it doesn’t explain the pre-Muslim migration anti semitism (of the Corbyn variety) which I think is just an appeal to good old fashioned racism, and spurious tropes about the Rothschilds.

this.

See I read this as pretty anti-Muslim
This conflict isn't Muslims v. Jews and talking about it like that is pretty inflammatory. If anything, it is in fact more akin to a civil war between religious factions.

"Courting the Muslim vote" (a.k.a. "representing your constituents") does not lead to antisemitism. Antisemitism is racism. Trying to win votes from racists doesn't tend to be a feature of any moderate parties, left or right.

I'm going to be interested to see what our politicians do over the next few days. With the Israeli government being explicit that a two state solution is not acceptable to them, and the US being equally hard line that two states has to be part of the solution, I think its about to become much more acceptable to call for a ceasefire without upsetting our allies. Will be interesting to see if either Sunak or Starmer go for it. I thought Sunak was edging more towards that position at PMQs yesterday.

I think the trouble with this is that other wars are not paid nearly as much attention. Awful things happen in wars, and people don't generally watch it blow by blow on Instagram or TikTok, then share every detail like a special newsflash. Places are bombed without it being labelled "genocide" and without a constant tally of the body-vs-body count, like a football score, as though that proves one side is evil and the other innocent.

Israel has put up with constant bombing from Gaza for years, relying on the Iron Dome for protection. If you accept that what happened on 7 October was (to put it mildly) the last straw and can't just be ignored (especially given that Hamas promise to repeat it for ever and it poses an existential threat to Israel), then what next?

The commentaries on here suggest that Israel should have just stayed calm and entered some sort of peaceful negotiations, as though Hamas can be reasoned with or trusted to keep promises of any kind. Israel is blamed for the fact that Gaza needs supplies (because Hamas spent all the $$$millions$$$ on tunnels and weaponry instead of infrastructure). Israel is accused of genocide and indiscriminate carpet bombing, when the extremely low number of casualties per metric tonne of explosives dropped proves that this simply cannot be the case. The difficulties of them fighting an opponent hidden in tunnels and using human shields is not even acknowledged.

There have been posts insinuating that Israel deliberately attacked its own people on 7 October, and that maybe Hamas didn't really do half the things it is accused of.

It's this astonishing level of refusal to see the facts, and distorting everything to suit a black-and-white view of Israel as a ruthless oppressor, that points to antisemitism.

As a non-Jew and a non-Israeli I find it really sickening that people can twist the knife like this in what is a deep, deep wound.

@Pizdietz there has been really awful things said on both sides. Not just on mumsnet but on social media too.

Regardless of that I still stand by what I said in the post you have tagged me in

I know you do, I was just doing my best to answer your question, from my perspective, about why it could be seen as antisemitic to be accusing Israel of war crimes 😊 These are exceptional circumstances and conditions and the jury is out.

The trouble with social media is that you can literally find an "expert" or a politician or a journalist or just someone on the ground who will tell you exactly what you want to hear, whatever your opinion is.

@Pizdietz I saw this morning there are 14 active wars at the moment.... three in which America are involved.

See I read this as pretty anti-Muslim

I don't think it's fair to accuse a poster of being anti-Muslim for making a statement of fact.
Reminds me a bit of the what Kate Osborne tried to do to Kemi Badenoch.

@Pizdietz yes that's the reason I don't focus on social media in regards to any of the things I mentioned. I find it to be mostly biased on both sides depending on which accounts you follow.

So to give perspective if there was a Jewish poster making a video of shabbos prep for example and the comments underneath were 'how dare you do this when your horrible country is committing war crimes' or to that effect (similar horrible comments which i have seen myself) i would consider that comment to be anti-semitic in that context

However I can't see how a discussion on war crimes that Israel has/may have committed is anti-semitic.

I'm not sure that's true though Marx, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemburg, Tony Cliff (founder of UK SWP), Alexei Sayle, Ken Loach's son-in-law Elliot Levey, Jackie Walker ,Jon Lansman (founder of Momentum), Bernie Sanders - just some that come off the top of my head and there are multitudinous others. They have always played a major role in socially progressive movements and proudly so.

However I can't see how a discussion on war crimes that Israel has/may have committed is anti-semitic.

It depends. On many of the threads, a lot of what is posted is unverified and there is the assumption, often expressed in very strong terms, that Israel has invariably done the awful thing, and with the worst possible motivations - bloodthirsty, enjoy killing Palestinians etc.

To me it often reads like it is straying into blood libel territory. If people even provided context, for instance that Israel suffered a terrible, provoking attack but that they feel the response is killing too many civilians or far too harsh - that would be fair enough. But reading some of the responses is almost like Israel launched the attack on Gaza entirely unprovoked.

@Parkingt111 btw I absolutely am not including you in that, I know how you have always been empathetic to the suffering of everyone affected.

However I can't see how a discussion on war crimes that Israel has/may have committed is anti-semitic.

Just that, as I tried to explain before, there is no acknowledgment that Israel is fighting a tricky enemy in tricky circumstances. Terrorists who use civilians as human shields. Who get children to do some of their dirty work. Who hide themselves and their weapons in sensitive places. Who blur seamlessly into the civilian population. Who have brought Gaza to its knees by focusing entirely on building up its arsenal rather than investing all its considerable wealth into a viable infrastructure.

To see Israel, and not Hamas, repeatedly blamed for the plight of Gazans is what seems rather antisemitic to me, given that Israel's alternative is just to sit tight and endure more 7 Octobers.

@SomeCatFromJapan just a heads up - you recommended @ Gaza Reports on twitter to me a couple of days ago - just in that time seen 2 materially incorrect tweets - not at all sure of this guys credibility

@Efacsen I wouldn't vouch for credibility at all - just an interesting addition to a variety of twitter accounts to consider.

@SomeCatFromJapan I can see where you are coming from and I agree context is important. However along the same vein I don't agree with posters who minimise or think it is irrelevant to the war to mention any history that happened prior to the 7th of October (to clarify I am not saying that what happened prior justifies the actions but just that it cannot be ignored, especially when it comes to what happens on the day after)

@Pizdietz your point seems to be doing what you say the pro Palestinian posters are doing. That all the blame is only on one side

Okay I'll be more blunt

He posted 2 things within a couple of days which are demonstrably false

Beware

@Efacsen well yes clearly any report claiming with no verification to be from the ground in Gaza needs to be taken with a pinch of salt! It provides some interesting on-the-ground footage though. Beyond that I can't comment as you haven't specified the tweets.

your point seems to be doing what you say the pro Palestinian posters are doing. That all the blame is only on one side

I'm saying war is always horrible, but this is a war where everything that happens is paraded as a "war crime" with no acknowledgment of the exceptional conditions under which it is happening.

I don't understand your comment about blame...?

A big problem for the left is how to explain Jewish success. There has long been a commitment on the militant left to IQ being meaningless, non-science etc as an explanation for differences between groups.

But the most obvious reason is that Ashkenazi verbal IQ is on average 120 points or more, a very significant increase from the average. Whether this is cultural or genetic is irrelevant. Many on the left can't accept this as the primary cause of Jewish success, because their worldview won't stand for it.

Which makes them vulnerable to resentment, conspiracy theories and other lurking antisemitic tropes, even if for many these are not openly recognised or acknowledged.

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Interesting quote - which ex PM was that?Not arguing I stress - genuine question.

this sounds like a very big generalisation - as much as saying any racial group is less intelligent - can you back this up?

This isn't a war. Israel is targeting civilians who can't defend themselves.

This isn't a war. Israel is targeting civilians who can't defend themselves.

The IDF is fighting Hamas though. It's not civilians killing the IDF soldiers.

US intelligence report today backs up Biden saying bombing is 'indiscriminate'

CNN

@Offwiththecircus the interview with Ehud Olmert was prior to the war. He isn't squeaky clean himself but does give a insight into the divide that Netanyahu caused including some of his extreme and controversial policies that many Israelis were against too

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/3/16/23639947/palestine-netanyahu-israel-protests-ehud-olmert