What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Like those children and old ladies they kidnapped? The people they gunned down at that festival? The pregnant woman they murdered at a bus stop in Jerusalem along with others?

What a fucking stupid thing to say.

I don’t think your equivalencies are true. The IDF aren’t just randomly killing Gazans. They have an idea where Hamas operatives and leadership are- they are striking them. Gazans are dying because Hamas use them as human shields- so no, that is just not correct.

Secondly, control of the Gazan borders by Israel does not equate to internal control. The withdrawal by Israel in 2005 was for the purpose of creating an independent Gazan state. Unfortunately within 2 years Hamas took over/were elected (there are many issues with the election, but they were technically elected). At that point Israel imposed control on the passage of goods to prevent access of good to be used for armaments. That doesn’t mean that internal control of the territories wasn’t administered by Hamas (and the PLA in the WB). Thats why things like the beheading and defenestration of homosexuals happens there.

Im not conflating Muslims and terrorists. I’m simply pointing out that all the terror groups I listed are explicitly Islamic- that was me making the point that Islam has a problem with anti-semitism, within the context of my earlier point about the left’s problem with anti-semitism in the UK, since the Labour Party is overwhelmingly the party that represents Muslims. I’m not saying A is co-identical with B, I’m simply saying that all A are B, not that all B are also A. I was suggesting this was one of the problems the modern left has (and the wider point that the internal conflicts the Labour Party has at the moment due to the Israel/Gaza conflict may actually result in an electoral loss for Labour, when 6 months ago I would have predicted they were an absolute shoe-in)

@noblegiraffe So you're holding the IDF to the same standard as terrorists now? Hamas kills innocent women and children so it's ok for the IDF to do it too?

No, I pointed out it was fucking stupid to say that Hamas were targeting the IDF.

I can fully disagree that islam is founded upon anti semitism. Pretty sure if a muslim said that all jewish people hate Muslims it'd be a very big problem but the other way round and its completely fine.

@noblegiraffe In Gaza, right now, Hamas are targeting and taking out IDF soldiers and tanks. How is that a stupid thing to say?

Because you are suggesting that Hamas are dutifully only fighting soldiers per the rules of law as if they wouldn't kill, rape, torture, kidnap civilians, and ignoring the fact that they have done exactly that. And as if they haven't said that they would repeat October 7th a million times as soon as they get the chance.

Note the last paragraph. That means they're not after a two state solution. They're after the eradication of the state of Israel.

@noblegiraffe I am suggesting nothing of the sort. I was responding to a poster who asked "who is killing the IDF?" I responded by saying that Hamas is killing the IDF.

@Livelovelaugh028384 I am quite happy to type out why if you like. It's quite lengthy but I don't mind.

Paragraph 1 of the revised charter:

The Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” is a Palestinian Islamic national liberation and resistance movement. Its goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project. Its frame of reference is Islam, which determines its principles, objectives and means. (emphasis mine)

I agree that the revised charter does not mention Jews but rather the “Zionist project”. However there is no question, at all, that after the October attacks that Hamas are not anti-Semitic as opposed to just anti-Zionist, since they killed babies.

Op take a look at Motaz Azaiza Instagram page and see what the Palestiniens in Gaza have been experiencing in the last 2 months. Nothing can ever justify punishing a people like this and nothing good will ever come from it.

@Humdingerydoo I read it twice but I don't understand how it means the eradication of the Israeli state.
I don't think Hamas should be ruling Gaza after the war and I don't think they will either (hopefully) but I still didn't understand how it would mean that?
Is it because he said Jerusalem and not specified East Jerusalem?

You said "It seems Hamas is targeting the IDF, while the IDF is targeting civilians."

Hamas are targeting whoever they can. Hamas are also disguising themselves as civilians and hiding among civilians.

@noblegiraffe Yes, currently in Gaza, Hamas are targeting the IDF and the IDF are targeting civilians.

This thread has gone exactly the same way as every single thread on the conflict. Derailed and focusing on the IDF and Israel and how they are perceived and their apparent wrong doings.

From the original charter:

Article Eight: Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Article Thirteen: Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120). There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. (emphasis mine) The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

and so on. Article 15 is also worth reproducing but this just becomes a massive wall of text. A simple Google will provide the full text for anyone to pursue.

Well there's a bit of a caveat isn't there? How many Israeli civilians are there in Gaza for Hamas to target?

As for the IDF are targeting civilians as if they are completely ignoring the guys with guns and rockets....

"Apparent" wrongdoings 🙄

Yes. He's mentioning Jerusalem as their capital. It's deliberate. He knew exactly what he was saying. I think it's time people started to listen to what they're saying and not pretending they're some kind of freedom fighters. They're a terrorist group with genocidal intentions. I'm so fed up with everyone going on solely about how Netanyahu doesn't want a two state solution - at the moment, neither side wants it. And by side I mean those in charge, not the civilians who live there.

I have taught Religious Education for 20 years and this is news to me too.

To be fair, in the various quotes where various Israelis have rejected the two-state solution, it’s generally on the basis of “we cannot have a 2-state solution with Hamas”.

The Israeli withdrawal in 2005 was on the basis of a 2-state solution. Thats not really worked out well for anyone, because Hamas is sworn to the destruction of Israel. How do you have a 2-state solution in these contexts?

Yeah as it is just opinions isn't it. All these strong opinions about terrible IDF action and terrible Netanyahu and the government, etc, etc, etc are just that.

Opinions.

@Humdingerydoo from what i know both sides say that Jerusalem belongs to them and the two state solution is based on Jerusalem being divided with East Jerusalem being the capital of a Palestinian state. And the other half the capital of Israel

I agree that saying Jerusalem as a whole and not specifying is provocative. But I don't see how it is any less than what Netanyahu said either.

Both really need to go and hopefully be replaced by those who actually want peace for the sake of everyone. Israelis and Palestinians

I know, but Netanyahu did also present the map of Israel including the West Bank and Gaza just a few months ago. He's an absolute imbecile, just as purposely antagonistic as Hamas are. I'm pro-Israel but I'm very much not pro-Netanyahu.