To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

[Autumnalvibesofmellowness]

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

I agree with you up to removing Hamas. But democracy is a very western concept that isn’t accepted in the Arab world. To have a democracy, you have to separate state and church. Democracy works on people electing a government, not god choosing a leader. That conceptually just isn’t acceptable - religion and governance are interlinked. You can’t impose a foreign system as Bush found out in Iraq.

That doesn't sound like a good book to read! I've read a few that are more informative and humane.

Does it really matter what the history is. We are literally watching a live genocide on TV right now. Who gives a flying monkeys what it's about or why any more. Those poor children and basically the whole of gaza are innocent souls and we, as in the world, have failed them. My heart actually hurts watching this. Then I feel guilty because I'm in my safe home with my children and I'm upset and that's also not doing anything.

Does no one else not get upset watching all these things or have you all only watched the western media? Has anyone actually had a look at a Palestinians isntagram or Palestinian account motaz_azaiza? Or does everyone watch the news and when Israel say they have conducted one of their checks or they release andtatement that is a lie, you just believe them because they are Israel?

I'm sorry I'm really upset right now so probably not coming across very well.

That's an interesting point, @AccountsConsult . Also, not everyone wants a democracy.

20 years from now we will all be sat hearing and watching talks where leaks come out against Israel like we do 911 and many other things. We will see.

I think that you recognise that those are elements and not the whole community really. One thing that makes me feel furious in all this (and it's about the most minor thing there is in all this) is that as a Jew I may be painted to some people who doesn't see Palestinians as human and who doesn't believe they should have a safe and peaceful home.... which is not what I believe at all. But I can't deny it's what some of my co-religionists do believe, or try to use to justify the situation.

@Echobelly I assure you, I believe you. And most Jews don't share the same ideology as Israel. And most of the Muslim world know this. I'm sorry if you have experienced any negativity or anything that has upset you. X

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness - The Jewish people are not one large homogeneous group of people. By all means criticise Israeli government actions, call out abhorrent views but I am troubled by your comments about not supporting “the Jewish community” for the thoughts and actions of some Jewish people and the leaders of Israel.

I genuinely cannot see how we can support the Jewish community in the way they need and deserve if elements within the Jewish community are dehumanising another people group in a way that blinds the world to the tragedy of thousands of children dying. Surely we just end up with a new holocaust.

The Jewish community are doing nothing of the sort. Nor are the Muslim community responsible for the atrocities of Hammas. YABVVU at best to talk in this way.

The Israeli government and military are who you have a problem with. They don't want a tow state solution. Jews are not responsible for the actions of the state of Israel.

I've said it on other threads @Autumnalvibesofmellowness it's not jews. It's israel as a government state. Yes Jews live there. But many residents aren't practicing Jews. You can't blame the Jewish community just as you can't blame the Muslim community even though the largest population of gaza are muslim

I don't think there will be any news for a while. All mobile phone coverage and internet coverage has been cut while Israel ramps up the bombing and expands the ground operation. I can't see how there can be any communication with the outside world.

Exactly @ketchup07070 it's horrendous. Israel are like mice. They know what they are doing is the worst things you can imagine. So they need to shut the world off to do it!

@Fairtobefairohhhhhc - thanks. I've not experienced anything but tomorrow I'm going to synagogue for the first time since this all kicked off (due to be being away/other stuff going on) and I'd be lying if I said I won't be a little more alert than usual on our walk there.

@Echobelly - I really feel for you. I hope you have a safe visit to the synagogue this weekend.

@Echobelly I understand that. I'm muslim, wear a hijab and visually muslim and had my first hate encounter yesterday, albeit minor. Shook me up though.

I hope your day goes well and try not to worry

I worry that these faux accusations of antisemitism which shut down open criticism of Israel will lead to a new generation of very real antisemitism

• when the world finally acknowledges that the Israeli government did indeed commit genocide while the world watched on. And sadly the victims of this hate will be the innocent, not just Israelis who oppose the war but Jewish people worldwide.

Apologies for strange paragraphs above!

I'm keen to get that right. You would like me to refer to Israelis rather than Jews when talking about the people living in Israel?

Just thinking aloud - how does the Jewish community globally feel about what the Israeli government is doing? Is there widespread support or are there tensions?

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness - not all Israelis are Jewish not all Jewish people are Israeli.

There will be no general consensus amongst Jewish people globally, like with all ethnicities and religions - there will be lots of different feelings and thoughts.

I can fully get on board with that.

What I would like to know is: who am I talking to when responding to the myriad posters on threads like these who are highly supportive of Israeli military retaliation and claim to be Jewish? While not responsible for the actions of the state of Israel, they do seem to be the people of that state and claim to share the suffering of the people of that state. Surely they are capable of influencing their democratically elected government, if not right now then in the future? And if they have nothing to do with the Israeli government - no connection even as a member of the electorate - whose interests is the Israeli government actually representing?

I chair the local chapter of an national Jewish muslim organisation. The Jewish women I work with are wonderful - joined events, local support for initiatives, quest for "peace" and friendship. But when it comes to these "conflicts", support is always for Israel to defend itself, no matter what, and the word Palestine is rarely used in discourse, as if it a word that will make us all spontaneously combust.

And why do Jewish people not governed by that state feel so freely able to dictate that the Western world support a particular regime they have not even personally voted for and don't live under? And why can we not engage with them about this position? If someone is going to draw a clear line of connection between their son's safety at a Jewish London school and some failure of the west in relation to our attitude to the Israeli government, why are they able to step away from personal involvement when challenged despite having claimed personal involvement when criticising the British /US administrations?

But surely you have to be able to speak freely at some point?

It's wonderful that this group exists.

To be honest, not really. One of the agreements is that the groups focus on friendship and understanding, but not politics. We don't talk about Israel and Palestine.

We have had events with Rabbis - incl Chief Rabbi Ephraim (who is very pro Israel), but again these are about generic "peace" and understanding. There is no direct convo and there are almost no Palestinians in these groups. And if they are, again, we don't talk about Israel. And even now, when the 3 Muslim, Christian and Jewish ministers issued a statement after the Oct 7attacks, it was to promote solidarity with the Jewish victims first and foremost.