To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

[Autumnalvibesofmellowness]

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

What do you mean by Occupied Land in Gaza?? Gaza is Palestinian Land. The lands outside of West Bank and Gaza have been occupied by Israeli settlers for the past 75 years. A lot of this is illegal occupations.

Because Israel are allowed to do what they want and anyone who argues against them are labeled antisemitic.

What could I, a British Jew in a small city in England, do to stop Jews in Israel building settlements?

Did you have this many questions about other conflicts, can I ask?

I agree with you OP. I am sickened ,angry , sad at what is happening. I cannot imagine the horror that those in Gaza are enduring including the hostages. 57 UN workers also killed in Gaza since the start of this conflict.
what is happening with Israel defending itself is inflaming the other areas. Peace looks very far away. Can you expect a child in Gaza to now think charitably about Israeli government after this latest bombardment.

So fed up of people saying this:

Did you have this many questions about other conflicts, can I ask?

to try to shut down criticism of the Israeli government.

To answer you @PurpleChrayne - I have a pretty equal interest in conflicts with large press coverage. Russia invading Ukraine, the Taliban taking over Afghanistan, Wagatha Christie (joke!) I try to educate myself on world affairs as much as I can. Do I have your permission to be able to have an interest in what’s happening in Israel and Gaza?

Just by the nature of your question "occupied land in Gaza" means you need to go back and learn more about the history of the people and the area. Gaza is not occupied. It is Palestinian land and has been since 2005 (really, since 1994).

I can't even address the rest of your questions when you start from a place of misinformation like that.

ETA: "Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution?" In your further reading you will find that this is not the goal of the Palestinian people (generally) and that is why there has been conflict since 1947.

Do you mean the Jewish community in the UK? What are you talking about?

Perhaps siege of Gaza would have been a better word for the current situation. Until the IDF inevitably make their ground invasion of Gaza, then we can say occupation. So we can’t talk about Israel Palestine unless we have an equal interest in other conflicts and get the language exactly right?

Sure you can have an interest and talk about it. But the OP's entire post has an air of self righteous "I don't understand how I can see the solution to this problem and no one else can" when she clearly doesn't understand much about it at all.

Surely OP is talking about Israelis taking over areas of Palestine

Israel aren’t occupying Gaza. They withdrew in 2005 (approx?), Hamas were elected in 2006 and have been in power since. Israel were however supplying water, elec and other things to Gaza which they have now cut off, and they controlled the port/fishing very tightly to the detriment of Gazans.

I don’t have the answers op. And tbh I’m quite wary of “Oh I just don’t understand, silly ol’ me…” from posters who then come out with anti-Semitic content. I think we are all smarter than that.

Hamas is for the moment still lobbing rockets over into Israel- my 70-something parents in Tel Aviv spent the night in a safe room - and still hanging on to 200-something civilian hostages. So imo any discussion of “ongoing provocation” needs to include that side of things.

No I don't understand a great deal about it at all.

I don't know the correct terminology but like a lot of people I'm asking more questions lately.

Interested in other conflicts when they're on the front page, naturally.

I'm talking about land that I understand belongs to Palestinians but is being slowly overtaken by Israeli settlers - Biden referred to them as radical? You know that land? Why are they doing that if Israel is the one wanting a two state solution?

I’m afraid you are the misinformed one. All the Palestinian Territories are occupied by Israel by definition and as determined by the United Nations. Claims that they are not occupied by Israel are propaganda meant to victim blame the Palestinians for the de-development and apartheid that Israel has subjected the Palestinians to.

“Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory is unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli government’s de facto annexation policies, a UN-appointed Commission of Inquiry said in its first report, published on Thursday.” https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722

”The UN Special Rapporteur’s report echoes recent findings by Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights organisations who analized Israel’s 55-year occupation of the Palestinian Territory.
“There is today in the Palestinian territory occupied by Israel since 1967 a deeply discriminatory dual legal and political system, that privileges the 700,000 Israeli Jewish settlers living in the 300 illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank,” said Michael Lynk, the UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967” https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

”Similarly, Israel has had a de facto border with Gaza since it pulled its troops and settlers out in 2005, but Gaza and the West Bank are considered a single occupied entity by the UN, and the official borders have not yet been determined. The final status and contours of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem are meant to be decided in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians living there under Israeli occupation, but decades of on-off talks have so far proved fruitless.” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567

I understand what you mean op and I have wondered the same.

You mean the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

And when you try to educate yourself on the history on both sides, you get gaslit by supporters of both sides implying it has nothing to do with you or you don’t fully understand the history.

The ordinary citizens on both sides trying to go about their day to day lives have my absolute sympathy, as do the Jewish people in the uk.

We all mostly know what the problems are but what is the solution? Hamas don’t want a two state solution, they want to obliterate Israel and Jews. Israeli govt have become more right wing, and behaviour in West Bank sounds appalling, but this is specifically about Gaza. You can’t negotiate with Hamas. I assume the only option is to militarily remove Hamas, clear tunnels etc and then impose some kind of international governance to establish Palestine as a functioning democratic country with infrastructure. Will take generations. The UN let this happen on their watch too (arms being kept in UN hospitals, schools etc). They had the knowledge and authority to speak up internationally. It’s just such a mess.

A few little posts:
"Occupied lands" usually references buildings in the West Bank area, not Gaza. These are often individuals and it's a pretty contentious issue in Israel, linked to the prevalence of very small, hardline parties in the political coalitions. It's not something that is generally considered to be "a good thing" by most people

Gaza and the West Bank are both Palestinian, but governed by different parties/ governments

The Two State solution is something Israel signed up to in the Oslo accord. So did the PLO. Hamas were so pissed off that they started the second infatada. They then took over Gaza in a highly questionable election.
If a two state solution is going to be implemented, which it seems the majority of people do want if only because it would stop people dying, then Hamas are the people who need to sign up to it and they refuse on principle

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness -Palestine consists of Gaza and the West Bank, the Settlers you are speaking about are mostly in the West Bank, the land around Jerusalem and up to the border with Jordan. There are also some settlements in the Golan Heights which was part of Syria. The West Bank is controlled by the Palestinian Authority who are not affiliated with Hamas who control Haza and are seen as more moderate but are still authoritarian, just less extremist. I actually do not know what the Israeli government’s justification for supporting the West Bank Settlements and the treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank are (will need to research).

I suggest you start with the BBC if you want to learn, they have some good resources including maps and how the land has changed over time.

The Two State solution is something Israel signed up to in the Oslo accord. So did the PLO. Hamas were so pissed off that they started the second infatada

Israel & the PLO signed up to the two State solution and then after a right wing Israeli assassinated their own PM, the new right wing PM Netanhyu then went about green lighting illegal settlements and forcing Palestinians from their homes in violation of the accords. The five year timeline to independence was never honoured, making Palestinians feel even more betrayed. Palestinians then had some violent clashes under PM Ariel Sharon (a war criminal) which was the excuse needed to just trash the Accords for good. Sharon then decided to do provocative things like storm into sacred mosques during prayer. Then Hamas got upset and the second intifada kicked off.

We've now moved this over to our Conflict in the Middle East topic.

Thanks for clarifying what land this is.

I've seen the maps changing over time but the depletion of Palestinian land is so stark that I thought there had to be more to it.

Nothing anti--semeitic about questioning and criticising Israeli foreign policy so stop claiming there is. It is getting extremely frustrating. I have no idea why Israelis think they are above criticism. Every government should be questioned and critiqued and held to account for their actions.

I am sorry to hear your parents are living in fear it is an horrific scary and painful situation for all innocent civilians and something both Israeli and Palestinian civilians are feeling in equal measure

Here is a link on Netanhyu’s role in derailing the Oslo Accords, he has never and will never want a two state solution.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine

Nothing.... change your wording from Jews in Israel to Israelis....why would anyone expect an English citizen to have anything to do with what an Israeli citizen does

In 2015: Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-no-palestinian-state-under-my-watch/

Some of the answers on this are only confusing me more. Is there no consensus about anything?

I make no apologies for asking the question because we can't stand by as a global community and either engage in antisemitism/watch atrocities being carried out impassively. We have to understand.