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Conflict in the Middle East

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To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

242 replies

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 11:59

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

OP posts:
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15
cestlavielife · 27/10/2023 14:00

Where is the source for this?
"arms being kept in UN hospitals, schools etc"

Alalalalalongalalalalalonglonglilong · 27/10/2023 14:01

Icelolly999 · 27/10/2023 13:42

I understand what you mean op and I have wondered the same.

You mean the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

And when you try to educate yourself on the history on both sides, you get gaslit by supporters of both sides implying it has nothing to do with you or you don’t fully understand the history.

The ordinary citizens on both sides trying to go about their day to day lives have my absolute sympathy, as do the Jewish people in the uk.

Yes I agree with you. It's hard to figure out and there seems to be a lot of narrow-minded presumptions. I know very little of the situation so cant comment. But surely anyone with a brain knows the average person does not always condone the actions of their government or leaders, even those elected. Let alone those of the same race living elsewhere. I can't fathom how anyone could be hostile to a non Israeli Jew because of decisions of the Israeli government. Likewise its ridiculous that the same person interprets criticism of that government as some sort of personal or racist slur.

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:03

You need to separate Gaza out as it is not occupied by Israel. It is controlled by Hamas. It has received millions if not billions in aid and has somehow not managed to provide basic needs for the Gaza people.

Do you know about the tunnel network beneath Gaza and where the building materials came from?

Have you asked how Hamas is a world leader in producing death rates? Most countries start with an estimate then the figure increases as more bodies are found. Like the Israeli figures.

Not all the terrorists on 7 October were in Hamas. A large number of civilians joined in in the attacks.

Israel built walls/fences to protect from terrorist incursions and were criticised for it. Hamas then did exactly what Israel had been saying it needed protection from and they’re being criticised for not being proportionate.

Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction would be and still they went ahead with it thereby sacrificing their people. They could have put down their weapons and adopted a negotiating position that wasn’t “From the river to the sea”.

Do you expect Hamas to turn up to talks about a two state solution? Do you know what their charter says? Do you know that Hamas is different to Fatah and when they took power they killed Fatah members?

Are you concerned that Hezbollah may well launch attacks from Lebanon that Israel will have to defend? Or will that be Israel yet again bullying its neighbours?

Have you questioned why it just seems to be Israel who is been called on for a humanitarian ceasefire? Hamas has been boarding Israel since 7 October including, apparently, some of the kibbutz they decimated on that day.

Lots of questions. I don’t have the answer to a lot of things but I do know that Hamas had to a lot more than Israel to help broker peace in the region.

(cue lots of lovely posts condemning me for my hideous Nazi views 🙄)

brentwoods · 27/10/2023 14:06

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 13:59

Some of the answers on this are only confusing me more. Is there no consensus about anything?

I make no apologies for asking the question because we can't stand by as a global community and either engage in antisemitism/watch atrocities being carried out impassively. We have to understand.

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness
Some of the answers on this are only confusing me more. Is there no consensus about anything?

This. Exactly this. Now you're on the right track. It's not easy to understand and there are no easy solutions.

thatone · 27/10/2023 14:10

I think you have summed things up really well OP. At the moment anyone who questions the scale of Israel's response is given the stock justification of 'they must defend themselves' as though they have no other choice. And Palestinian civilians don't matter. It is lazy thinking and a refusal to actually deal with the issue.

I am not surprised by Israel doing this because they have been shifting to the extreme right. But the fact that other countries who, while calling for aid to Gaza, are actually arming Israel, really have a lot of blood on their hands.

I agree that Hamas needs to be dealt with - but I don't agree that Palestinian civilians should be held accountable.

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:10

I forgot about the human shields! They fire rockets from built up areas, store munitions in mosques, schools, hospitals. There’s are places that don’t have civilian buildings that could be used to fire rockets from, but no.

They could also allow civilians into the tunnel system, but no. Israel provides its population with bomb shelters. Hamas could have, but no. Missiles are more important.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 14:12

I am aware and of course vehemently disagree with Hamas’ aims, but I am also not shocked that some people in Gaza have animosity towards Israel and some of those will be easily taken in by Islamist extremists and terrorists. Even before Hamas the Gazans had been corralled into a tiny parcel of land and fenced in. It’s not too big a leap to see how this would help terrorist organisations recruit.

crumblingschools · 27/10/2023 14:13

@Lolapusht can you mention the Palestinian children detained in Israeli prisons

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:15

thatone · 27/10/2023 14:10

I think you have summed things up really well OP. At the moment anyone who questions the scale of Israel's response is given the stock justification of 'they must defend themselves' as though they have no other choice. And Palestinian civilians don't matter. It is lazy thinking and a refusal to actually deal with the issue.

I am not surprised by Israel doing this because they have been shifting to the extreme right. But the fact that other countries who, while calling for aid to Gaza, are actually arming Israel, really have a lot of blood on their hands.

I agree that Hamas needs to be dealt with - but I don't agree that Palestinian civilians should be held accountable.

Israel isn’t doing this because their government is more right-wing. They’re doing it because Hamas terrorists invaded their country, massacred 1400 people and took over 200 hostages.

Hamas does need to be dealt with but until they stop hiding behind their civilians, Palestinian civilians will be killed.

CaroleSinger · 27/10/2023 14:16

I've seen more than once the mention that average Palestinian civilians joined in with the killing and abductions that triggered this latest conflict. Where is this verified?

Housechat · 27/10/2023 14:16

@Lolapusht - I don’t see anyone disagreeing that Hamas is awful, that it’s violent, that it causes great suffering to Israelis and Palestinians alike. That doesn’t in any way justify Israel’s use of collective punishment on the Palestinian people. You don’t get to rip up the Geneva Convention because someone attacks you.

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 14:17

Completely agree with you, @Autumnalvibesofmellowness

You probably won't get very far here -

Pick and choose what responses will be

But Hamas
But Israel has to defend itself
But Palestinians did this to themselves
But what about all the other occupations
But antisemitism

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:23

@Lolapusht
“You need to separate Gaza out as it is not occupied by Israel.”
Gaza is in fact occupied by Israel. This is fact.

“It is controlled by Hamas. It has received millions if not billions in aid and has somehow not managed to provide basic needs for the Gaza people.”
The Gaza Strip, being an occupied by Israel, is not entirely under Hamas control. All aid to Gaza goes to Israel first, then Israel decides what goes in and comes out…everything. Anything Gaza does without Israeli permission like dig a well, or upgrade a power plant- Israel destroys.

“Do you know about the tunnel network beneath Gaza and where the building materials came from?” The materials came from the rubble left behind by Israeli airstrikes.

“Have you asked how Hamas is a world leader in producing death rates? Most countries start with an estimate then the figure increases as more bodies are found. Like the Israeli figures.” No idea what sort of aspersion you are trying to cast here.

“Israel built walls/fences to protect from terrorist incursions and were criticised for it. Hamas then did exactly what Israel had been saying it needed protection from and they’re being criticised for not being proportionate.” Israel was rightly criticised for the encircling high tech barrier manned with remote control machine guns around Gaza that kills any living thing that gets too close to the wall and the blockade of Gaza which predates Hamas coming to power.

“Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction would be and still they went ahead with it thereby sacrificing their people. They could have put down their weapons and adopted a negotiating position that wasn’t “From the river to the sea”. They’ve tried that and similarly Israel knew what would happen if they imprisoned over two million people under severe blockade since 2005 while conducting ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and then storming the Al Aqsa mosque during Friday night prayers with tear gas and rubber bullets would result in Hamas rockets. They knew at some point, someone would fight back.

“Do you expect Hamas to turn up to talks about a two state solution?” Yes they have done so before and unlike Israel upheld the cease fire that came with it.

“Do you know what their charter says?” Do you know what Nethanyu and Likud say?

“Are you concerned that Hezbollah may well launch attacks from Lebanon that Israel will have to defend? Or will that be Israel yet again bullying its neighbours?” Israel started sending attacks over the border into Lebanon- their first attack killed a group of journalists. Then they hit a Lebanese town. They knew Hezbollah would respond if they kept it up.

“Have you questioned why it just seems to be Israel who is been called on for a humanitarian ceasefire? Hamas has been boarding Israel since 7 October including, apparently, some of the kibbutz they decimated on that day.” Because Hamas has asked for and offered a cease fire repeatedly

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 14:25

crumblingschools · 27/10/2023 14:13

@Lolapusht can you mention the Palestinian children detained in Israeli prisons

Doesn't fit her narrative

thatone · 27/10/2023 14:25

'Hamas does need to be dealt with but until they stop hiding behind their civilians, Palestinian civilians will be killed.'

I think this sentence sums up the tragedy really. A more civilised world would see that this is not right.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:26

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:10

I forgot about the human shields! They fire rockets from built up areas, store munitions in mosques, schools, hospitals. There’s are places that don’t have civilian buildings that could be used to fire rockets from, but no.

They could also allow civilians into the tunnel system, but no. Israel provides its population with bomb shelters. Hamas could have, but no. Missiles are more important.

Hamas could not have built bomb shelters for one. And for two, you think Israel would allow it? They would not. And for three, this is rather like a German blaming Churchill for all the London dead in the Blitz for not building enough bomb shelters like it is perfectly acceptable to bomb entire cities residential areas and is not Germany’s fault if there happen to be civilians killed…oh no…London you should have built more/better bomb shelters.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:28

thatone · 27/10/2023 14:25

'Hamas does need to be dealt with but until they stop hiding behind their civilians, Palestinian civilians will be killed.'

I think this sentence sums up the tragedy really. A more civilised world would see that this is not right.

Yeah imagine saying that about the Israeli civilians killed by Hamas. Imagine saying, oh IDF use human shields, it’s their own fault civilians were killed in the attack. It’s a disgusting twist of logic no matter who you apply it to. Neither Hamas or IDF use civilians as human shields.

DottieMoon · 27/10/2023 14:29

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:15

Israel isn’t doing this because their government is more right-wing. They’re doing it because Hamas terrorists invaded their country, massacred 1400 people and took over 200 hostages.

Hamas does need to be dealt with but until they stop hiding behind their civilians, Palestinian civilians will be killed.

The Hamas attack on innocent civilians was horrendous and inexcusable.

THIS DOES NOT JUSTIFY ISRAEL MURDERING THOUSHANDS OF INNOCENT PALESTIANIAN CIVILIIANS.

Regardless of Hamas hiding in civilian areas for protection, Israel made the decision to continuously bomb densely populated areas knowing that thousands of innocent people would die. That is murder. They are no better than Hamas. Both meet the definition of terrorists. Israel have murdered over 7000 civilians, 3000 of those being children. That is not defence, it's genocide. You cannot blame Hamas for Israel despicable actions.

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/10/2023 14:30

Hamas could not have built bomb shelters for one. And for two, you think Israel would allow it?

They managed to build plenty of tunnels though.

Dulra · 27/10/2023 14:32

Lolapusht · 27/10/2023 14:03

You need to separate Gaza out as it is not occupied by Israel. It is controlled by Hamas. It has received millions if not billions in aid and has somehow not managed to provide basic needs for the Gaza people.

Do you know about the tunnel network beneath Gaza and where the building materials came from?

Have you asked how Hamas is a world leader in producing death rates? Most countries start with an estimate then the figure increases as more bodies are found. Like the Israeli figures.

Not all the terrorists on 7 October were in Hamas. A large number of civilians joined in in the attacks.

Israel built walls/fences to protect from terrorist incursions and were criticised for it. Hamas then did exactly what Israel had been saying it needed protection from and they’re being criticised for not being proportionate.

Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction would be and still they went ahead with it thereby sacrificing their people. They could have put down their weapons and adopted a negotiating position that wasn’t “From the river to the sea”.

Do you expect Hamas to turn up to talks about a two state solution? Do you know what their charter says? Do you know that Hamas is different to Fatah and when they took power they killed Fatah members?

Are you concerned that Hezbollah may well launch attacks from Lebanon that Israel will have to defend? Or will that be Israel yet again bullying its neighbours?

Have you questioned why it just seems to be Israel who is been called on for a humanitarian ceasefire? Hamas has been boarding Israel since 7 October including, apparently, some of the kibbutz they decimated on that day.

Lots of questions. I don’t have the answer to a lot of things but I do know that Hamas had to a lot more than Israel to help broker peace in the region.

(cue lots of lovely posts condemning me for my hideous Nazi views 🙄)

The tunnels? Yes I know about them. They're the tunnels an Israeli diplomat in Ireland accused the Irish of helping Hamas fund them because our government and President dared criticise the Israeli governments bombings of Gaza and breaking international human rights law

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/senior-israeli-diplomat-suggests-ireland-is-funding-hamas-tunnels-in-deleted-post/a1859848361.html

Senior Israeli diplomat suggests Ireland is funding Hamas tunnels in deleted post

An Israeli diplomat based in Dublin suggested Ireland is funding Hamas in a now deleted post on X, formerly Twitter.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/senior-israeli-diplomat-suggests-ireland-is-funding-hamas-tunnels-in-deleted-post/a1859848361.html

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:33

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/10/2023 14:30

Hamas could not have built bomb shelters for one. And for two, you think Israel would allow it?

They managed to build plenty of tunnels though.

In secret. And frankly that liminal land couldn’t support bomb shelters for 2.3m without sinking into the sea.

WeightoftheWorld · 27/10/2023 14:36

WhiteHorseSpirit · 27/10/2023 14:23

@Lolapusht
“You need to separate Gaza out as it is not occupied by Israel.”
Gaza is in fact occupied by Israel. This is fact.

“It is controlled by Hamas. It has received millions if not billions in aid and has somehow not managed to provide basic needs for the Gaza people.”
The Gaza Strip, being an occupied by Israel, is not entirely under Hamas control. All aid to Gaza goes to Israel first, then Israel decides what goes in and comes out…everything. Anything Gaza does without Israeli permission like dig a well, or upgrade a power plant- Israel destroys.

“Do you know about the tunnel network beneath Gaza and where the building materials came from?” The materials came from the rubble left behind by Israeli airstrikes.

“Have you asked how Hamas is a world leader in producing death rates? Most countries start with an estimate then the figure increases as more bodies are found. Like the Israeli figures.” No idea what sort of aspersion you are trying to cast here.

“Israel built walls/fences to protect from terrorist incursions and were criticised for it. Hamas then did exactly what Israel had been saying it needed protection from and they’re being criticised for not being proportionate.” Israel was rightly criticised for the encircling high tech barrier manned with remote control machine guns around Gaza that kills any living thing that gets too close to the wall and the blockade of Gaza which predates Hamas coming to power.

“Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction would be and still they went ahead with it thereby sacrificing their people. They could have put down their weapons and adopted a negotiating position that wasn’t “From the river to the sea”. They’ve tried that and similarly Israel knew what would happen if they imprisoned over two million people under severe blockade since 2005 while conducting ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and then storming the Al Aqsa mosque during Friday night prayers with tear gas and rubber bullets would result in Hamas rockets. They knew at some point, someone would fight back.

“Do you expect Hamas to turn up to talks about a two state solution?” Yes they have done so before and unlike Israel upheld the cease fire that came with it.

“Do you know what their charter says?” Do you know what Nethanyu and Likud say?

“Are you concerned that Hezbollah may well launch attacks from Lebanon that Israel will have to defend? Or will that be Israel yet again bullying its neighbours?” Israel started sending attacks over the border into Lebanon- their first attack killed a group of journalists. Then they hit a Lebanese town. They knew Hezbollah would respond if they kept it up.

“Have you questioned why it just seems to be Israel who is been called on for a humanitarian ceasefire? Hamas has been boarding Israel since 7 October including, apparently, some of the kibbutz they decimated on that day.” Because Hamas has asked for and offered a cease fire repeatedly

Thank you for this detailed post! I thought nothing would shock me anymore but there has been so much outright nonsense on MN about this recently.

I've noticed a particularly popular theme now seems to be incessant whataboutery and loads of faux questions like in the post you replied to. I guess banking on nobody bothering to reply to answer them, so thank you to you who did.

Dulra · 27/10/2023 14:37

I was watching C4 news last night and they were interviewing Israeli military (I think the reserves who've been called up) one soldiers language really stood out. He was talking about Palestinians how they're not the same as us (as in the West), they have different values, different rights, different ways, he was short of saying they are subhuman and I think if that's how they view Palestinians they won't have any problem with bombing them to bits.