To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

[Autumnalvibesofmellowness]

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

You’ve come an awfully long way from “I genuinely don’t understand,” haven’t you?

Here’s something we all understand: the Nazis left Jewish people with nowhere to go, as did the Arab states later on. Rather than choosing to die, they went to Israel. As would you, in their shoes.

Or wouldn’t you?

Is it though? I have heard that the Quran does not mention Jerusalem at all. Whereas the Torah and Bible do multiple times. Is it really that holy historically for Muslims?

There doesn't seem much doubt that the land was bought [I've witnessed this dispute about a million times]

That there were 'sitting tenants' already on the land is more tricky to resolve?

correction. They went to Palestine, where they were welcomed as refugees from European barbarism. They then launched a campaign of terrorism of their own, and committed massacres to ethnically cleanse Palestine and create Israel.

and personally, I wouldn’t go to a country whose existence is predicated on injustice and the persecution of others.

“imagine how terrifying it was being systematically hunted down and not just murdered but caged and starved and abused and in most cases still murdered. You can't protect your children and you have nowhere safe to go.”

you’ve literally just described the current situation in Gaza. What a tragedy that people who once suffered in this way once are now repeating the crimes against another people.

Gaza is controlled by Israel. Firstly they have stolen a huge amount of land from Gaza so it’s much much smaller than before. Israel restricts what goes in and out of Gaza. Israel destroyed their airport and Israel controls the port. Before you mention Hamas again, the awful situation in West Bank continues where illegal Israeli settlers steal homes and land and settlers are free to kill Palestinians without repercussions. This should also be condemned as Hamas is. The Palestinians of Gaza and West Bank have had enough. Imagine someone coming in to your home and forcing you to leave because they want it and if you dare to fight back your called a terrorist

Gaza couldn't have an election past 2006! The last election was 2021 but has been postponed because Israel detained a lot of the people running. Ergo keeping hamas in power. Ironic eh!

Beheading people isn’t “fighting back” - unless, of course, you live in the 13th century.

Let’s do something modern. Let’s agree that we will not agree, and let people make up their own minds. This, I am told, is what people in democracies like to do. I’m sure you knew that already.

Mumsnetters: choose your future very, very carefully.

@Ponyclubgirl oh yes because blowing up schools and hospitals is much more democratic, isn't it? 🙄

Last person to be beheaded in France was in 1977 in an appt with Mme Guillotine

Oh ffs more apologism for the 7 October atrocities.

Right so you are equally against Israel beheading and dismembering people? That's what bombs do. Or do bombs make beheading and dismembering people modern and democratic? It's wrong which ever way you go about it. Israel have dismembered far more people in the past 3 weeks than Hamas ever will and people need to speak up.

The idea of a 2SS is not fully accepted by Israeli or Palestinian politicians or citizens, although it is very popular with the international community. Israel under Netanyahu has said they would be open to a Palestinian state as long as it has no sovereignty or military (or not, in fact, a state then). Palestinian hardliners see ceding any land as an affront. There are of course a range of views, but Netanyahu is a hardline populist who plays to the religious right. Hamas are an insurgent group who do the same. The Palestinian authority in the west Bank is much more moderate and has cooperated with the IDF to an extent as they hate Hamas as much as Israel does. In return they've got illegal settlements and evictions.

The alternative- a fully integrated, non-Apartheid state seems equally impossible to achieve.

It is incredibly difficult to get a durable agreement when there are ethno-religious clashes over land. The Balkans still has an international administration in charge.

And how would you know what Hamas's plans are? Were you talking out of your wazooka, or should someone report you to Prevent?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzBF1GaN-R0/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Bella Hadids father talking about how when his mother was pregnant with him. Everyone took in jewish refugees in palestine. His mother left to stay with her mum to give birth. When he was 9 days old she returned to her home and they had locked her out and she had to go to a refugee camp.

This is what people are talking about when they say israelis stole the land. They literally did.

Bella Hadid whose father posted this?

@SomeCatFromJapan and your point is....?

@SomeCatFromJapan he also posted this.... is he not allowed to say what happened to his family?

Yes he can say what happened to his family, no issue with that.

@eardefender The Prophet Muhammed is held to have ascended to heaven in Jerusalem (carried from Mecca to Jerusalem). Jesus is also an important prophet to Muslims (so importance self evident).

Jerusalem is such a delicate balance (the keys to the church of the Holy Sepulchre are actually held by a Muslim family to avoid any rows). I'm not religious at all but have found it very moving when I've been.

Using white phosphorus bombs on innocent civilians and allowing illegal settlers to steal people’s homes and land is not 13th century. Very modern I assume. I choose my future very very carefully to be without phosphorus bombs, starving people deliberately and intentionally making innocent people homeless.

Conveniently for him, the Palestinian leader at the time had already promised Eichmann he would eradicate the Jews. Nifty, eh? Profess innocence while your leadership feeds you (and your enemies alike) into the blender. Old tradition of the region. The mint tea’s quite good though.

Lucky us still having choices, with our Western democracy & all. Can’t possibly imagine how that could fall to bits.

You missed out the bit about not calling for a London Intifada. Careless.

How does one ascend to heaven if he did the things he did?