To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

[Autumnalvibesofmellowness]

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

I'm feeling quite uncomfortable with some of the sentiments being expressed on this thread, and in fact in this whole section.

Funny thing is - Israel doesn't need your permission, or mine, to do what it thinks necessary. You'll find that the British stopped ruling that part of the world a long, long time ago. Have a pink gin and a lie-down.

What I would like to know is: who am I talking to when responding to the myriad posters on threads like these who are highly supportive of Israeli military retaliation and claim to be Jewish?

Maybe everyone who argues against you is Jewish. So what? Only a moron or a racist would think that means all Jews think the same.

Jewish people have as varied views as any other group. It should be bloody obvious why Jews might be (on average) predisposed to support Israel but that doesn't make them a hive mind.

If you don't want to be part of the problem then stop talking about 'Jewish people support...'

There is just no excuse for it.

@Fairtobefairohhhhhc - it is a strange and horrible situation whereby Jews are at risk from outlying Muslim extremists and Muslims are at risk from far right types who don't give a toss about Jews but want any excuse to attack Muslims. Why solidarity is so important for all of us who want a just and peaceful solution and why it's important others recognise this solidarity can and does exist.

Yes I can see why there's no real need to get into it.

Quite honestly, I would have no problem with this if I didn't feel that concern for Palestinians and criticism of Israeli foreign policy is shut down on the grounds that the poster is Jewish and finds any criticism antisemitic or lacking in concern for the Jewish position to the point of being anti-Semitic. Your response makes me more likely to conclude that it would be ok to acknowledge that I respect the poster is Jewish but it really makes no difference to the general points being made. Does that seem reasonable?

Can we donate? Let our mp know our concerns? Try to understand, as I'm doing?

I don't know that feeling uncomfortable is in itself a sign of a problem. I felt uncomfortable reading previous threads and starting this thread. What I am not going to do is be silent because you feel uncomfortable because children on both sides of this are dying and frankly sone of us are confused about what is actually happening.

I'm not under the impression that Israel needs permission. It needs arms and over time, it will need the support of the international community. The electorate's views will eventually matter. And I don't drink pink gin in response to infant deaths. But I do realise the Israeli government is acting in an unfettered and unaccountable manner tonight and there's nothing we can immediately do.

I'm feeling quite uncomfortable with some of the sentiments being expressed on this thread, and in fact in this whole section.

That is a separate issue though. People suddenly seem to be emboldened to start making odd insinuations about Jewish people.

Just because people are against the actions of Israel that does not make them an anti semite.

My understanding is that some question why Israel is held to a different standard vs say the UK or the US & that’s where the antisemitism comes in.

Seeing how the UK voted at the UN, I feel disgusted.

Why, they could never vote against & abstaining sends a message.

@duchiebun In what way is Israel being held to a different standard?

I don't think there is anything antisemitic about criticising the behaviour of Israel (and I know some people use that to avoid any criticism of Israel, I've been subject to it myself).

I do think it's getting very close to antisemitism the way you are criticising Jewish people for Israel's behaviour and implying that all Jews support Israel. Idiots on the other side,arguing in bad faith, don't justify that.

This whole thing is horrific. There is no right side. If you aren't being careful and nuanced then you add to the problem.

@Housechat take the War on Terror, how many civilians died or were displaced? Look at the Troubles in the UK. What do you think the US or the UK would do if a country they oppressed (there are many) carried out the attacks & took hostages? What response do you think the public would expect?

Downing a gin would be a more coherent response than telling Jews to put their house in order or face another holocaust. Which is precisely what you said. Your tears won't save a single infant, and you know it.

There was huge public outrage at the way we conducted ourselves during the war on terror!

And I don't remember us barrelling in and dropping bombs indiscriminately in the way Israel is.

But any civilian casualties are too many. In any conflict

@duchiebun - I won’t pretend the US and the UK haven’t committed war crimes of course they have, but that doesn’t mean that Israel gets to tear up the Geneva Convention and we have to look on a say ah well, our governments aren’t perfect either.

Expecting a country to not besiege a whole nation, starve its people and kill its civilians over the actions of a few, is not holding it to a higher standard. This is not a proportionate response and to pretend it is, is to admit that Palestinian lives are worth less than Jewish lives because that’s what this boils down to for the Israeli government isn’t it. That is very very clear to me when I hear Israeli politicians and IDF commanders on TV talking about Palestinians as if they are subhuman. How many Palestinians have to die before Israel has “defended itself” sufficiently?

And no, I would not expect the UK to respond the way Israel has to a terrorist attack, and if it did I would be one of the first people jumping up and down shouting that it was wrong. I wouldn’t be on the internet saying it’s not fair, we have a right to commit genocide to defend ourselves, you are all just picking on us.

That's not what the OP said at all!

The comment about the holocaust was about what Isreal is doing to Palestine not about Jews facing another holocaust.

The nazis saw Jews as subhuman and the result was the holocaust.
But it is clear that Isreal see Palestinians as subhuman and are inflicting genocide against them.

@needtonamechangeforthis1 it still happened though didn’t it?

Hundreds of thousands of civilians died directly & I think indirectly the death toll is in the millions.

@Housechat

And no, I would not expect the UK to respond the way Israel has to a terrorist attack

I don’t understand? We’ve seen the response, the war on Terror…