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Conflict in the Middle East

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To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

242 replies

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 11:59

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

OP posts:
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Housechat · 27/10/2023 16:17

@ketchup07070 - I was amazed all 27 countries managed to agree any sort of statement, let alone so quickly!

ketchup07070 · 27/10/2023 16:22

@Housechat It is encouraging. Sadly the UK isn't part of it. Not sure what Sunak's latest take is.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 16:24

@ketchup07070 - Probably whatever someone tells him it should be, not sure the man has ever had an original thought.

Maireas · 27/10/2023 16:24

Housechat · 27/10/2023 15:28

@WhiteHorseSpirit - they do not call Gaza the worlds largest open prison for nothing. Israel may not have had soldiers inside after 2005 until this week (although they certainly had intelligence agents) but they certainly control it. Giant fence one side, and patrolling the sea on the other.

And a border with Egypt.
I'm just reading up on the Egyptian occupation of Gaza, 1949-67. Interesting.
The Egyptians really don't want to take on this current problem, do they? That's why it took a while to them agreeing to open the Rafah crossing.

waterlane · 27/10/2023 16:27

Can I ask- I read yesterday that 500,000 citizens from Gaza travel to Israel every day to work, is this true?

Gruntsandgroans · 27/10/2023 16:30

waterlane · 27/10/2023 16:27

Can I ask- I read yesterday that 500,000 citizens from Gaza travel to Israel every day to work, is this true?

No. Only about 18,000.

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/10/2023 16:32

Can I ask- I read yesterday that 500,000 citizens from Gaza travel to Israel every day to work, is this true?

No - about 17 500 Gazans had daily permits to work in Israel prior to the 7 October attacks. That is obviously no longer the case.

There are about 140 000 people in the West Bank working in Israel.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 16:37

Maireas · 27/10/2023 16:24

And a border with Egypt.
I'm just reading up on the Egyptian occupation of Gaza, 1949-67. Interesting.
The Egyptians really don't want to take on this current problem, do they? That's why it took a while to them agreeing to open the Rafah crossing.

I can understand Egypt not wanting to, 2 million people flooding into a desert in a country that does not have the infrastructure to deal with a refugee crisis, and I doubt the rest of the world would help. I also read Israel’s permission is needed to open the crossing. Didn’t Israel also bomb Rafah recently?

Dulra · 27/10/2023 16:38

ketchup07070 · 27/10/2023 16:11

I did read that the EU has voted unanimously for 'pauses' to allow aid to enter. While I think it's tantamount to allowing someone a last meal before you kill them with a bomb - it seems a step in the right direction.

Yes that's right but our government and the Spanish wanted them to go further and call a ceasefire but it's better than nothing

Desertrose2023 · 27/10/2023 16:42

Autumnalvibesofmellowness · 27/10/2023 13:34

No I don't understand a great deal about it at all.

I don't know the correct terminology but like a lot of people I'm asking more questions lately.

Interested in other conflicts when they're on the front page, naturally.

I'm talking about land that I understand belongs to Palestinians but is being slowly overtaken by Israeli settlers - Biden referred to them as radical? You know that land? Why are they doing that if Israel is the one wanting a two state solution?

Because the truth is that Israel does not want a two state solution. Israelis believe that God gave them all the land and they and they alone have a divine right to live in it as it’s the homeland of the Jewish people and no one else.

it’s as simple as that. That is why they build illegal settlements and turn a blind eye/encourage settlers to carry out forced expulsions of Palestinians from their homes and other atrocities across the occupied West Bank.

Follow Mohammed and Mona al Kurd on instagram who have have documented their struggles in Jerusalem in relation to this issue.

ketchup07070 · 27/10/2023 16:45

@Dulra I'm so impressed with the Irish and Spain. I'm utterly ashamed of most of our English politicians.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 27/10/2023 16:50

@Desertrose2023 a little pop quiz for you -

Because the truth is that Israel does not want a two state solution.

How many times since 1948 has a two state solution been proposed?

On each of these occasions, which territory agreed and which declined?

Desertrose2023 · 27/10/2023 17:00

TheWayTheLightFalls · 27/10/2023 16:50

@Desertrose2023 a little pop quiz for you -

Because the truth is that Israel does not want a two state solution.

How many times since 1948 has a two state solution been proposed?

On each of these occasions, which territory agreed and which declined?

Because a two state solution must be anchored in 1967 borders. Something that Israel has done absolutely everything in its powers to frustrate with its illegal settlement expansion and monstrous separation barrier.

and I’m not sure why it’s shocking Palestinians would have originally rejected the carve up of their own land. The land they were ethnically cleansed from to pay for the sins of Europeans.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 27/10/2023 17:09

You left out the factual answer @Desertrose2023 . Israel came to the table to negotiate, Hamas didn’t. It’s absolutely fine to question to lines drawn, the parties involved etc but Israel does not want a two state solution” is either deliberately obtuse or the other thing.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 27/10/2023 17:09

*the

Foodorder · 27/10/2023 17:20

I was talking to a (Christian) Israeli friend earlier this week. Her mother was there when the fighting started, but managed to fly out to Cyprus and she still has cousins there. Her GPs lost their home in West Jeruselem when the land was divided.

Anyway she was saying the thing she's most furious about and that's not being reported, is that Netanyahu was in dire straights politically before all this started and she believes that to a large extent it has escalated the way it was to distract from that.

Foodorder · 27/10/2023 17:22

Maireas · 27/10/2023 16:24

And a border with Egypt.
I'm just reading up on the Egyptian occupation of Gaza, 1949-67. Interesting.
The Egyptians really don't want to take on this current problem, do they? That's why it took a while to them agreeing to open the Rafah crossing.

Well that and the fact the Israel were bombing the border.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 17:24

@TheWayTheLightFalls - coming to the table and negotiating are not the same thing. Israel may come to the table but they certainly do not negotiate, not with Netanyahu in charge anyway. He famously does not want a two state solution. I can see why Palestinian leaders do not see the point if the Israeli government are refusing to go back to borders agreed previously and insist on taking more land in the West Bank.

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 17:24

Foodorder · 27/10/2023 17:20

I was talking to a (Christian) Israeli friend earlier this week. Her mother was there when the fighting started, but managed to fly out to Cyprus and she still has cousins there. Her GPs lost their home in West Jeruselem when the land was divided.

Anyway she was saying the thing she's most furious about and that's not being reported, is that Netanyahu was in dire straights politically before all this started and she believes that to a large extent it has escalated the way it was to distract from that.

Saw some Israeli opinion polls earlier and he's doing really badly because of the intelligence failure

Maireas · 27/10/2023 17:25

I'm just reading about it and - like everything else in this situation - it's very complicated. I did not know about the UAR administration.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 17:25

@Foodorder political and legal dire straits. There is a current criminal case against him

Foodorder · 27/10/2023 17:31

Housechat · 27/10/2023 17:25

@Foodorder political and legal dire straits. There is a current criminal case against him

Exactly, but now he's big on the international stage and apparently nothing he does can be criticised without accusations of antisemitism.

ketchup07070 · 27/10/2023 17:35

@Housechat I did just see a headline that 250 British lawyers have called on the UK government to press for a ceasefire, and that there are breaches of IHL being committed. I don't know if the government will pay any attention.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 27/10/2023 17:37

That’s all absolutely valid imo @Housechat . I’m not seeking the find peace in the middle east on a Friday afternoon Mumsnet thread. I was taking issue with the PP’s quite sweeping statement that Israel doesn’t want a two state solution. Historically they were the one of the two in agreement with negotiating towards it. Again - absolutely fine to say that the approach underpinning the negotiation was flawed from the Palestinian POV or thag xyz would have made it unworkable, but sweeping statements help no one.

Housechat · 27/10/2023 17:43

@TheWayTheLightFalls - I wasn’t asking you to, if only it were so easy! I just found your post equally sweeping and a tad patronising so I thought I would respond to your points.