To have questions about occupied land in Gaza?

[Autumnalvibesofmellowness]

This is in no way an attempt to diminish the atrocities of October 7th.

We hear that Jewish people across the world are scared and I understand why. Fully sympathise. We hear they want their hostages released and I fully support that too. We hear that Israeli foreign policy right now has to be brutal because Hamas and there's no point trying to negotiate because Hamas don't want a two state solution. I'm open to all this being true.

But then I hear that Palestinians have their homes destroyed, their orchards bulldozed and their land occupied by Israeli settlers living in places that are Palestinian. I hear that Palestinian families sometimes have lasers on their bodies where Israeli snipers are trained on them, not being fired at but targeted as an intimation tactic to get them to leave their homes. I've read that Gaza could afford its own water but consent to put in water supplies needs to be given by Israel and never is.

(I also don't understand why special forces can't deal with Hamas rather than bombing Gazan children into oblivion and have seen US military leaders saying the same - but that's another issue).

I genuinely don't understand. Why the provocation and incursion upon Palestinians trying to get on with their lives? Why not stop that if the goal is to feel safe and have a two state solution? Many posters here have recently responded to the reported Gazan casualties of war by suggesting that it's Hamas' fault for not giving back hostages. But about the hostages....if I was an Israeli settler on Palestinian land I would return to Israel or offer to do so in order to secure this, if we're talking about everything being done that could be done to get those people home. It might be negotiating with terrorists in a way but surely displacing people from their homes is also a kind of terrorism so this solution would be a mutual standing down? If all Israel wants is a two state solution they're losing nothing and everyone wins.

I guess I'm wondering why we can't talk about this openly and why there is ongoing provocation of Gaza. It seems like Biden and other leaders skirt round the edges of this and Israel finds it incendiary. It also seems like there are logical conclusions that can only be drawn very hesitantly because they might be found offensive when they're actually common sense. I don't even feel like I can talk about these issues in RL for fear of being written off as antisemitic. As much as I sympathise, I'm perplexed. For example, I sympathise deeply with Jewish children who have to hide their uniforms to feel safe - that should never happen and particularly not to a people group who have endured the Holocaust. But why doesn't the Jewish community do what it can to minimise the tensions by stopping Israeli settlers moving into Palestinian homes? How does Israel have the moral high ground when it looks like an ongoing land grab rather than either party having a goal for peace? I don't think Palestinian children should be homeless because they feel driven out of their community either - but it seems like that's not ok to say. Or is it?

But isn't that the moral issue at the crux of it? Hamas don't seem to give a shit about how many Palestinians die (or Israelis obviously.) It's the language around this I find so bizarre, why is no one mentioning liberating the innocent Palestinians?

I saw that too Dulra and it was typical language that is used in warfare to dehumanise the enemy. It is no surprise at all that Israel is doing this but the fact that the rest of the world is happy to overlook, defend and justify this contravention of human rights is utterly chilling.

@thatone - I think nations supporting Israel are in a difficult position. If they show any weakness in their support for Israel the likes of Iran, Hezbollah etc who want to see Israel destroyed could jump on that and see it as an opportunity. However their refusal to call Israel out on what it’s doing is also indefensible. I think they are a bit stuck. I assume that there is a lot of diplomacy going on behind the scenes trying to temper Netanyahu but it doesn’t seem to be working. A huge chunk of Israel’s wider security comes from more powerful allies like the US.

@Housechat you are probably right about that but the Palestinian death rate is racking up and we do have rules for war which every 'civilised' country has signed up to.

This has always been the way, since the inception of the Zionist movement until the present day. You could make a table showing language used to describe Israelis and a parallel one for Palestinians. Palestinians have always been portrayed as animals, worthless, devoid of culture and uncivilized. They have no emotion or feelings of attachment towards land that is theirs or their homes.
I discussed this once with my Jewish friend (who is pro Zionist BTW) and she said it's much easier to believe that the people you are oppressing are subhuman, because you wouldn't be able to do it otherwise. It's part of their childhood narrative, that they are worthless and don't deserve human rights.

@thatone - I completely agree as you will see from my other posts, I just realise it’s not easy for western leaders to condemn Israel’s conduct.

Or the tower blocks collapsing into their foundations

It's just compacted sand - good for narrow tunnels which can be reinforced not good for big voids

This is a website of a Israeli Human Rights Organisation
https://www.btselem.org/

From their about us page”B’Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories strives for a future in which human rights, liberty and equality are guaranteed to all people, Palestinian and Jewish alike, living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Such a future will only be possible when the Israeli occupation and apartheid regime end. That is the future we are working towards. B’Tselem (in Hebrew literally: in the image of), the name chosen for the organization by the late Member of Knesset Yossi Sarid, is an allusion to Genesis 1:27: “And God created humankind in His image. In the image of God did He create them.” The name expresses the universal and Jewish moral edict to respect and uphold the human rights of all people.Since B’Tselem’s inception in 1989, we have been documenting, researching and publishing statistics, testimonies, video footage, position papers and reports on human rights violations committed by Israel in the Occupied Territories. The initial mandate we took upon ourselves focused on the occupation regime in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and in the Gaza Strip. However, over the years, it has become clear that the concept of two parallel regimes operating between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River – a permanent democracy west of the Green Line and a temporary military occupation to the east of it – is divorced from reality. The entire area that Israel controls is ruled by a single apartheid regime, governing the lives of all people living in it and operating according to one organizing principle: establishing and perpetuating the control of one group of people – Jews – over another – Palestinians – through laws, practices and state violence.“

Exactly right. And if you dig to any real depth like you’d need for a proper bunker type bomb shelter, you’d hit sea water.

No it isn't easy. The Irish and Spanish government's are lone voices in Europe criticising the Israeli actions and we are getting called all sorts by the Israeli diplomats including the Israeli ambassador to Ireland who is questioning our neutrality

You need to separate Gaza out as it is not occupied by Israel. It is controlled by Hamas. It has received millions if not billions in aid and has somehow not managed to provide basic needs for the Gaza people.

You see this is why it is confusing. Israel and pro Israel people say that Gaza isn't occupied. The UN and pretty much all human rights organisations say that it is. Israel have had Gaza under their control for almost 2 decades, they deny it though, even though it is clear that they do to everyone else and instead bounce everything back on Hamas.

Do you know about the tunnel network beneath Gaza and where the building materials came from?

The tunnels came about from Israel stopping all imports and exports to and from Gaza. They have been used by Hamas yes but they are also used to smuggle things like underwear, car parts and goats. Even chairs for schools that have been frequently bombed by Israel have had to be smuggled in because Israel so tightly controls what Gazans are allowed to import. Without the tunnel network Gazans would be at the mercy of Israel even more. Its far from an ideal solution and I'm sure that Palestinians would rather unload their knickers from planes at the airport Israel destroyed or from a seaport that Israel won't let them have. Israel drove the economy underground quite literally when they stopped pretty much all economic activity within Gaza. Israel don't want people to talk about this though, because you know according to Israel Gaza isn't occupied and they can do whatever they like, they just choose to do violence instead of having a thriving economy.

@Autumnalvibesofmellowness

This is a good read and will give you an idea about the horrific situation there:

The Nakba did not start or end in 1948 https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948

It does beg the question of where Hamas HQ is - can't run a war [hide hostages/stockpiles] from a maze of tunnels - there must be a biggish void or some small inter-connecting ones somewhere

I read somewhere that Israel constantly monitors underground movement in the tunnels both using drones and land-based listening equipment so they probably know where it is

Biggest democracy...

@Efacsen - I don’t think the top guys are there, they are in other countries. The BBC interviewed someone from Hamas recently and he was in Lebanon maybe? Maybe Iran?

I'm sure that Palestinians would rather unload their knickers from planes at the airport Israel destroyed or from a seaport that Israel won't let them have.

This was yet another way the Oslo Accords were trampled on by Israel. The agreement included an airport…it was funded by the US, Clinton presided over its opening in 1998. It was heralded as hope for Palestinians to have a future. Then less than two years later, Israel bombed the runway, terminal and traffic control tower and announced any attempt to repair would be met with more bombing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-after-its-opening-destroyed-gaza-airport-embodies-grounded-peace-hopes/

Several NGOs tried to run the sea blockade to deliver aid to Gaza…all were intercepted, boarded, and turned away on threat of being sunk by Israeli naval forces.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10202678

Out and about with Putin yesterday too

Agree tho' there will still be the hostages and stockpiles

IDF posted a pic of a tunnel - ?really narrow

@WhiteHorseSpirit - they do not call Gaza the worlds largest open prison for nothing. Israel may not have had soldiers inside after 2005 until this week (although they certainly had intelligence agents) but they certainly control it. Giant fence one side, and patrolling the sea on the other.

Yes, and this conflict has shown that Egypt doesn’t even control its border with Gaza- Israel does.

“Gazans who’ve had enough will find it difficult to leave. There’s both a naval blockade and a 40-mile-long border fence barring entry into Israel, complemented by an additional nine miles of steel and concrete walls on the Gaza-Egyptian border. Only a lucky minority are granted permits to pass through checkpoints into Israel or Egypt for work or medical care. But the checkpoints are frequently closed at times of high tension.
And now, in a new dystopian twist out of RoboCop, people defying the border barrier may be confronted by a robotic six-wheeled car blaring warnings from a built-in public address system. And if non-compliant, the robot can address the infraction with a turret-mounted machine gun.”

”The Israeli border barrier features miles of sensor-infused “smart” fencing guarded by ground troops and armored vehicles, surveilled by orbiting drones, and monitored by SentryTech towers armed with remote-control .50 caliber machine guns capable of shredding light vehicles. The barriers extend underground too, blocking some but not all cross-border tunnels used by Palestinian smugglers.”
https://news.yahoo.com/israel-sending-robots-machine-guns-075949543.html

Dulra there was another Israeli interviewed on the Jeremy Vine show . He said similar he said “We are not crazy Palestinians “ referring to the hostages we are like you in the Uk” In the West. Dehumanising again.
Did anyone watch Talk Tv last night ? I don’t usually watch it but on the Piers Morgan show they interviewed a Palestinian who now lives in the US who I think his dad was in Hamas and he himself is saying Hamas should be destroyed. I think his name was Yusuf . He seemed full of hate I thought .

There is so much hate on both sides ingrained generation after generation. Not a unique phenomenon to Israel/Palestine. It’s sad how quickly humans can dehumanise each other and embrace a toxic tribal mentality. We like to think of ourselves as superior to the rest of the animal kingdom but we aren’t really.

You mean Mosab Hassan Yousef.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef

I presume the average Israeli doesn't support this view though? I hope. I read there have been many protests against the government actions. Anyone know anecdotally what the civilian feeling is there?

I did read that the EU has voted unanimously for 'pauses' to allow aid to enter. While I think it's tantamount to allowing someone a last meal before you kill them with a bomb - it seems a step in the right direction.