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Conflict in the Middle East

To think it’s turning into genocide in real time part 2

751 replies

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 22/10/2023 08:43

First thread here but it’s full
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4918938-to-think-its-turning-into-genocide-in-real-time?page=1

Medical Aid to Palestine posted this thread on facebook describing the scenes in Gaza as being like the last days of humanity with one of their staff members having to search through piles of bodies to find his 13 year old niece https://www.facebook.com/100064712829372/posts/pfbid028yxpzimtA3apA6CSs8dEhJBd16rYUQR6QjFidEpwRCZzPVYoeJezX8nDrtZP2UZRl/?app=fbl

The main stream press aren’t really addressing the horror of what is happening (bar maybe Channel 4 news and Al Jazeera) - it’s a sanitised version.

As I said in the original thread, there has been absolute horror on both sides but the Israeli government are inflicting collective punishment on the people of Gaza, which is a war crime under international law.

I still feel we are watching genocide in real time.

To think it’s turning into genocide in real time | Mumsnet

Just seen this on the news- how can this be right? It genuinely is starting to feel like genocide. What Hamas did was beyond appalling. But this i...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4918938-to-think-its-turning-into-genocide-in-real-time?page=1

OP posts:

Am I being unreasonable?

177 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
31%
You are NOT being unreasonable
69%
MissyB1 · 26/10/2023 14:15

This reply has been deleted

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Stylestuck · 26/10/2023 14:19

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 12:53

@FactFairy yea but they aren’t targeting just Hamas are they? They have killed over 2000 kids. They are just flattening Gaza. They have used collective punishment- it’s against the Geneva convention to target water supplies.

How do you suggest that the IDF target just Hamas? How, when Hamas are hiding out in the underground spiderweb, banning the civilians above them from leaving their homes so that they act as human shields?

Believe me, I am not a supporter of the Israeli government. What is happening in Gaza right now is an abomination. But Hamas are terrorists and cowards. I don’t know what the answer is.

I also feel really uncomfortable with the use of the word genocide in this context. Jews are some of the only true victims of genocide in history. I don’t feel that what Israel are doing right now is genocide. It’s fucking awful, but it’s not genocide.

notimagain · 26/10/2023 14:30

. Israel is expected to follow international law just like any other country including those engaged in conflict.

That means not bombing schools or hospitals,


You might want to check exactly what these international laws say, especially with respect to hospitals..(and other locations that are perhaps not as protected as some people think) )

It's obviously grim as *** to be on the ground in Gaza at the moment, no denying it, and it may well get worse if a ground offensive starts, but far too many people are simply chucking the "war crimes" into the debate for effect.

Perfect28 · 26/10/2023 14:32

@notimagain you think the likes of the UN 'chuck these terms about'?

Featherbirds · 26/10/2023 14:32

@Stylestuck True victims of genocides? That's a bit unfair. There have been genocides before and after the Holocaust. There have been several in the least 50 years at least. But yes, the Holocaust was very calculated.

Legally, genocide is a bit shaky but the UN's Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories said that "Palestinians are in grave danger of mass ethnic cleansing".

Poudretteite · 26/10/2023 14:35

This is Hamas' doing.

Sippingmytea · 26/10/2023 14:36

@notimagain I think Antonio Guterres would disagree with your response. He is openly saying that Israel is not acting in accordance with international law.

notimagain · 26/10/2023 14:43

Perfect28 · 26/10/2023 14:32

@notimagain you think the likes of the UN 'chuck these terms about'?

Not sure what the UN are chucking around but there's law behind this.

The protection various facilities such as hospitals get in wartime is laid down in various conventions, those conventions also point out the circumstances in which facilities can lose that protection...

Marmight · 26/10/2023 14:49

@BumWad

"Absolutely horrific. I’m ashamed to be British."

Sorry, you're going to explain that one.
Why are you ashamed to be British on a thread talking about the Israel/Hamas conflict?

notimagain · 26/10/2023 14:50

Sippingmytea · 26/10/2023 14:36

@notimagain I think Antonio Guterres would disagree with your response. He is openly saying that Israel is not acting in accordance with international law.

I heard Guterres has made generic comments - you specifically mentioned hospitals, I was hopefully addressing that point.

Frankly it doesn't matter what Guterres says for public consumption , the international laws ATM do allow in some circumstances for the targeting of facilities that I think some people think are unconditionally protected, or like to portray as being unconditionally protected.

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 15:00

@Marmight Uk and the US are the only 2 countries bar Israel that haven’t called for a ceasefire/humanitarian pause.

Sunak is enabling this to happen.

OP posts:
Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 15:01

See Indy headline

To think it’s turning into genocide in real time part 2
OP posts:
Sippingmytea · 26/10/2023 15:06

@notimagain I used hospitals as an example. I think most people who have a good moral compass would agree that bombing a hospital is never justified.

I find it interesting that there’s quite a few posters on here that challenge that - never directly of course.

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 15:15

@Sippingmytea theres a few posters on here that don’t seem to think what Israel is doing is wrong. It’s incredible.

OP posts:
notimagain · 26/10/2023 15:28

@Sippingmytea

". I think most people who have a good moral compass would agree that bombing a hospital is never justified."

I think it might be worth taking some time out to actually understand what international law says about the obligations of all parties in conflict when it comes to hospitals, churches etc before making judgements about anybody's moral compass....

Echobelly · 26/10/2023 15:31

I'm concerned, and I'm Jewish btw, that this is a scorched earth strategy to grab the land by making it unlivable and driving everyone off it and aiming to tell Palestinians that this is all Hamas' fault, so blame them not us, we had to set an example, tough shit.

WhiteRabbitBlackCat · 26/10/2023 15:36

Bombing a hospital is morally justified (imo) if the terrorist group with an avowed goal of committing genocide is deliberately hiding within a hospital.

Israel is condemned for not doing more to protect Gazan civilians and gets no credit for advance warnings or anything else they do to minimise casualties while Hamas, the elected government, deliberately puts its own civilians at risk and don't seem to care how many of their own people die (in bombed hospitals or elsewhere).

A ceasefire will only delay the inevitable. (Remember the ceasefire earlier this year? How's that going?) All that will happen is that Hamas will refuel and re-arm. Civilians will start to rebuild and then they will be caught up in the next wave because it will start again. It is impossible to compromise with a group who wants you wiped off the map and who will let its own people die to achieve that. There is - literally - no common ground.

I wish like hell there were a way to get rid of Hamas without other people dying. But the way Hamas has structured this fight, there isn't.

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 15:43

The wounded and sick must be respected in all circumstances; attempts upon their lives and violence against their person are strictly prohibited (1949 First Geneva Con- vention (GC I) Art. 12; 1949 Second Geneva Convention (GC II), Art. 12; 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention

Problem is @WhiteRabbitBlackCat you aren’t allowed under one of the Geneva conventions to do that!

OP posts:
notimagain · 26/10/2023 15:45

@WhiteRabbitBlackCat

Bombing a hospital is morally justified (imo) if the terrorist group with an avowed goal of committing genocide is deliberately hiding within a hospital.

It's not just morally justified, in those circumstances it is allowed according to the Laws of Armed Conflict subject to certain very specific checks and balances (e.g. necessity, proportionality of force, warnings given). There's more to this than the bits of the GC the PP quoted.

I'd need to check on the following but I think that to avoid the need for the above above it may actually be a war crime to deliberately hide your military assets (personnel, materiel, headquarters) within said facility....

Sippingmytea · 26/10/2023 15:45

@notimagain surprisingly I don’t think most people need to take time out to think about whether bombing a hospital is wrong. I’m also not talking about one specific hospital but rather all hospitals. The same applies to schools and religious buildings.

It is worrying that posters on here are actually debating whether bombing any hospital is acceptable.

headhurtstoomuch · 26/10/2023 15:46

FactFairy · 26/10/2023 12:48

Israel is not committing war crimes.

Here you go

To think it’s turning into genocide in real time part 2
Sippingmytea · 26/10/2023 15:47

@WhiteRabbitBlackCat ”Bombing a hospital is morally justified (imo)”

I don’t need to read any further than that. Absolutely disgusting.

Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 · 26/10/2023 15:48

It is worrying that posters on here are actually debating whether bombing any hospital is acceptable

@Sippingmytea quite. As are the people on here arguing it’s fine to deprive people of water, food, medicine etc. None of it is ok and you can see exactly how genocide & ethnic cleansing is tolerated when these conversations happen. Propaganda at its finest. It’s so fucking disturbing.

OP posts:
notimagain · 26/10/2023 15:53

" I don’t think most people need to take time out to think about whether bombing a hospital is wrong. I’m also not talking about one specific hospital but rather all hospitals"

I sort of admire your idealism but international law has to cater for the unscrupulous who don't give a do dah about international law, might paint a red cross/crescent on a roof, claim the building is "a hospital" and then use the facility to store munitions or as an HQ from which to run military operations...

Anyhow this all may get sorted out post conflict in court....

GrumpyPanda · 26/10/2023 15:57

notimagain · 26/10/2023 15:45

@WhiteRabbitBlackCat

Bombing a hospital is morally justified (imo) if the terrorist group with an avowed goal of committing genocide is deliberately hiding within a hospital.

It's not just morally justified, in those circumstances it is allowed according to the Laws of Armed Conflict subject to certain very specific checks and balances (e.g. necessity, proportionality of force, warnings given). There's more to this than the bits of the GC the PP quoted.

I'd need to check on the following but I think that to avoid the need for the above above it may actually be a war crime to deliberately hide your military assets (personnel, materiel, headquarters) within said facility....

Edited

Yes the Hamas strategy as you suspect is indeed a war crime.

Regarding war crimes and Gaza in general here's a really good Twiiter thread:
https://twitter.com/SCynic1/status/1717128708757057743.

https://twitter.com/SCynic1/status/1717128708757057743

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